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Bows a bit too strong?
Bows
What should be done?
Nothing. They're fine and balanced. [ 14 ] ** [43.75%]
-1 MT to all bows [ 8 ] ** [25.00%]
-1 MT to all bows and something else (e.g. flier effectiveness reduced) [ 4 ] ** [12.50%]
Some nerf that doesn't harm their MT [ 6 ] ** [18.75%]
Total Votes: 32
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Lysander
post Oct 11 2009, 02:32 PM
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This potential change could affect how I play the game, so, yeah, I have a say. Try to explain how changing the might will solve the potential problem better than any other potential change. All I'm seeing are straw men set up to fall.

For example, you guys keep saying that archers have full power 2 range attacks. So do mages? Then melee units have full power 1 range attacks. Do archers? Then you guys keep talking about the ability to buy bows that can OHKO flying units. Aha! We've reached a legitimate concern. How do we solve this legitimate concern? Do we lower might of bows or...do we do something that specifically targets this concern without affecting bows in general?

EDIT: Oh, and I guess the brave bow would be something else to be examined.
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Beemo
post Oct 11 2009, 03:47 PM
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QUOTE(Lysander @ Oct 11 2009, 12:32 PM) *
This potential change could affect how I play the game, so, yeah, I have a say. Try to explain how changing the might will solve the potential problem better than any other potential change. All I'm seeing are straw men set up to fall.


That's because you only see what you want to see.  A 1 MT nerf is really not that impactful.  In fact, people will continue to use bows more than other physical units, for their many advantages that will be completely and utterly unaffected by this tiny nerf.


QUOTE(Lysander @ Oct 11 2009, 12:32 PM) *
For example, you guys keep saying that archers have full power 2 range attacks. So do mages? Then melee units have full power 1 range attacks. Do archers?


No.  And we've already established that mages are a different case altogether.

QUOTE(Lysander @ Oct 11 2009, 12:32 PM) *
Then you guys keep talking about the ability to buy bows that can OHKO flying units. Aha! We've reached a legitimate concern. How do we solve this legitimate concern? Do we lower might of bows or...do we do something that specifically targets this concern without affecting bows in general?



That's what this is.  We are addressing this concern.  And no, we can't just throw out the slayer bonus to fliers if that's what you're implying, because that would make fliers unbalanced.  Changing something else would eliminate this problem, but it would bring about a much larger problem, which we've been working way too hard to solve to ruin it, simply because some people don't understand those balance issues from a strictly theoretical standpoint.

QUOTE(Lysander @ Oct 11 2009, 12:32 PM) *
EDIT: Oh, and I guess the brave bow would be something else to be examined.


Brave Bow = essentially a 2 Range Brave Sword.  Does anyone think Brave swords are too weak?  No one?  That's what I thought.
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Lysander
post Oct 11 2009, 04:01 PM
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Eliminating the formula != tweaking the formula

Then a -1 to bow might across the board affects the bronze, iron, and steel weapons too. Not a good idea since those aren't the problem weapons.

Then somebody earlier was complaining that Brave Bows are too strong. Talk about only seeing what you want to see...

Basically, bow users perform stronger on the first strike because they can attack at full power from range. This is, generally, offset by their weakness at range 1 (where they get attacked at full power but cannot counter at full power). Yet, people are saying this is not exactly offset in the case of certain weapons or against flyers. Specifically, it has been claimed that killer and brave weapons are a huge advantage at range, which makes sense since they give a OHKO chance without fear of fullpower counter. Then, bows are inherent slayers with no disadvantages like the regular slayer weapons. So, what is the problem? Is it bows in general, the might rating of bows in general, the specs of certain bows, or the formula for bows vs. fliers? Your arguments are suggesting things different from the proposal. Please, this time do not take things to the extreme just to set them up for failure.



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Geoffrey Barbara Butl...
post Oct 11 2009, 04:11 PM
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QUOTE(Lysander @ Oct 11 2009, 04:01 PM) *
Eliminating the formula != tweaking the formula

Then a -1 to bow might across the board affects the bronze, iron, and steel weapons too. Not a good idea since those aren't the problem weapons.

Then somebody earlier was complaining that Brave Bows are too strong. Talk about only seeing what you want to see...

Basically, bow users perform stronger on the first strike because they can attack at full power from range. This is, generally, offset by their weakness at range 1 (where they get attacked at full power but cannot counter at full power). Yet, people are saying this is not exactly offset in the case of certain weapons or against flyers. Specifically, it has been claimed that killer and brave weapons are a huge advantage at range, which makes sense since they give a OHKO chance without fear of fullpower counter. Then, bows are inherent slayers with no disadvantages like the regular slayer weapons. So, what is the problem? Is it bows in general, the might rating of bows in general, the specs of certain bows, or the formula for bows vs. fliers? Your arguments are suggesting things different from the proposal. Please, this time do not take things to the extreme just to set them up for failure.

All braves are strong. Bows are strong against fliers to keep them all from being op. Swords do fine with that might, I see no reason why bows won't. Don't talk to me about this "defensive phase" bullshit. ALL PHYSICAL UNITS should be holding toys, meaning that THEY ALL have weaker counter-attacks. Bows are strong due to being 2-range because of H/R (especially those including longbows,) 1 mt won't destroy them and they will still be used just as much. 1 mt WON'T CHANGE MUCH AT ALL. I'd attack with a bronze in a H/R if it meant that I could get out of the way without taking damage. This is just putting a check on one of the most utilized units in the game. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Beemo
post Oct 11 2009, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE(Lysander @ Oct 11 2009, 02:01 PM) *
Eliminating the formula != tweaking the formula

Then a -1 to bow might across the board affects the bronze, iron, and steel weapons too. Not a good idea since those aren't the problem weapons.

Then somebody earlier was complaining that Brave Bows are too strong. Talk about only seeing what you want to see...

Basically, bow users perform stronger on the first strike because they can attack at full power from range. This is, generally, offset by their weakness at range 1 (where they get attacked at full power but cannot counter at full power). Yet, people are saying this is not exactly offset in the case of certain weapons or against flyers. Specifically, it has been claimed that killer and brave weapons are a huge advantage at range, which makes sense since they give a OHKO chance without fear of fullpower counter. Then, bows are inherent slayers with no disadvantages like the regular slayer weapons. So, what is the problem? Is it bows in general, the might rating of bows in general, the specs of certain bows, or the formula for bows vs. fliers? Your arguments are suggesting things different from the proposal. Please, this time do not take things to the extreme just to set them up for failure.

With all due respect, I really don't think you understand the mechanics of this game well enough to argue this.  Just as bows "fear" a 1 range attack on the counter(which is ridiculous), melees have to deal with 2 range attacks from magic users and bow users, both of which are terrifyingly common.  In BOTH cases, the units are forced to equip a sub-par weapon just for the sake of countering at 1-2 range, so this is a moot point if I ever saw one.


Braves and Killers are at a slight advantage at 2 range, which is WHY WE'RE SUGGESTING NERFING THEM.  In fact, all weapons have that advantage, so we're only knocking MT down by ONE DAMAGE to offset that advantage.  In my opinion, this won't solve the problem, but it is our best option, and the problem will definitely become less noticeable.  We've already reworked everything you listed in your post, except for "bows in general," because there you aren't being specific enough to be of any help.  Your lack of experience with FETO rears its ugly head here, since you aren't exactly familiar with what happened after all the other changes we made during the SWEEP, and on May 5th.  Each time we try to mess with mechanics that affect other mechanics, more problems arise from it, which only creates more work.

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Misha
post Oct 11 2009, 05:49 PM
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QUOTE
Basically, bow users perform stronger on the first strike because they can attack at full power from range. This is, generally, offset by their weakness at range 1 (where they get attacked at full power but cannot counter at full power)

Of course. Nobody counters at full power. If your swordmaster is holding anything but a knife/dagger/kard on the counter, they're going to be hit from range 2.

Bows will be holding short bow on their opponent's turn. Swordmasters will be holding knife on their opponent's turn. Fact of life. We agree that all units are weaker when it's not their turn? Great. Moving right along.

The inherent 2 range bonus bows have is that they're the only physical unit that can get the full power first strike. Can anyone here tell me with a straight face that having the ability to attack first is not preferable to being able to only react to an attack?

Bows make it such that I can't create a situation in which I'll let my opponent have the first strike, leading with a bunch of 12 def 24 res 5/5/5s.

QUOTE
Is it bows in general, the might rating of bows in general, the specs of certain bows, or the formula for bows vs. fliers?

All of the above attribute to bows being the strongest physical weapon type.
bows at +10 acc/x1.5 dmg is fine. That's why it's called a weakness. Fliers ignore terrain and have 8 movement, with no BST penalty. If bows didn't hurt them, there'd be no reason not to make every unit you have possess wings.
The specs of bows is.. uh.. fine? They work well in relation to each other, since they copy lances verbatim, and nobody's been bitching about lances being overpowered.

Reducing their pow by 1 will both reduce their effectiveness vs fliers, and make them worse critmasters than halberdiers and swordmasters on a point-for-point basis, but still has the ability to OHKO fliers with their killer weapon, can still crit people with longbows in a H/R situation, and are easier to killer crit and run.

This means you trade stats for ability.
Not unlike picking a nomad instead of a mystic. You lose 2 BST, but gain 2 MOV, and the ability to facilitate Hit/runs
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Lysander
post Oct 11 2009, 08:16 PM
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See, that explanation makes more sense to me. Basically, you are saying that since bows have +1 fullpower range over all other physical weapons, they are better than all other physical weapons on first strike. Based on that judgement, you are then saying that they deserve a reduction in base stats similar to mounted units. Yet, if we were to reduce bow using units base stats, that would leave units who promote to use bows a bit overpowered. So, instead, you are suggesting reducing the base stats of bows by 1.

That makes plenty of sense when operating under the assumption that the first strike is the most important part of the game (a good assumption as far as I can tell). I think Reikken brought the exact same point up a long time ago and the response to it actually buffed bows even more by giving them advanced 1-2 range weapons.

I'm still curious as to how bows relate to magic though since bow units and anima mages both start with the same pool of stats and both use weapons with the same stats. Magic units have the same first strike advantage with only 2 disadvantages to bow first strikes: 1) No brave weapons 2) No slayer weapons. Then, they have 1 advantage: 1) Potentially easier placement since first striking at full power with choice of 1-2 range is easier to do than first striking with locked 2 range. More of a situational advantage though, so it could probably be ignored. Basically, this leaves me with two questions: 1) If magic is the better first strike option when compared to physicals, why hasn't anything been done to level the advantage? 2) Would bows still be the best first strike option due to braves and their inherent flier slaying even with the 1 might nerf (suggesting these two aspects of bows need to be examined as well)?
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Axel Almer
post Oct 11 2009, 09:35 PM
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@u8/mint: Okay my bad, had a slight misconception. Anyways, i don't think bows should get a mt penalty, why not slightly reduce their HIT to axe level?

QUOTE(miketheemo @ Oct 11 2009, 11:52 PM) *
EDIT: p.s. Way to go Shaq. Nice entrance. Couldn't be more proud of your apparent literacy rate and level of common sense.


Don't worry, i'm not down to your standards since you don't even have them. (IMG:style_emoticons/blue/yourmove.gif)
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Ted, Blue God of FETO
post Oct 13 2009, 04:45 PM
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Yes this is a massive wall of text get over it.


QUOTE(Mystia Lorelei @ Oct 11 2009, 03:49 PM) *
QUOTE
Basically, bow users perform stronger on the first strike because they can attack at full power from range. This is, generally, offset by their weakness at range 1 (where they get attacked at full power but cannot counter at full power)

Of course. Nobody counters at full power. If your swordmaster is holding anything but a knife/dagger/kard on the counter, they're going to be hit from range 2.

Actually most of my bow users counter with mythril (IMG:style_emoticons/blue/proudbow.gif)

Bows will be holding short bow on their opponent's turn. Swordmasters will be holding knife on their opponent's turn. Fact of life. We agree that all units are weaker when it's not their turn? Great. Moving right along.

But this still holds true, I just couldn't abide the nobody.

The inherent 2 range bonus bows have is that they're the only physical unit that can get the full power first strike. Can anyone here tell me with a straight face that having the ability to attack first is not preferable to being able to only react to an attack?

In unpromo, I actually like teams that make the opponent have to attack. And metal fatigue at least looks like it's a second strike team till it takes out all of one mage on a first strike. For first striking purposes though, bows generally over other physicals.

Bows make it such that I can't create a situation in which I'll let my opponent have the first strike, leading with a bunch of 12 def 24 res 5/5/5s.

5/5/5s suck, don't use them unlorded. I'm being serious btw. Mike don't respond, I can already see it in my head, save yourself the energy.


QUOTE
Is it bows in general, the might rating of bows in general, the specs of certain bows, or the formula for bows vs. fliers?

All of the above attribute to bows being the strongest physical weapon type.
bows at +10 acc/x1.5 dmg is fine. That's why it's called a weakness. Fliers ignore terrain and have 8 movement, with no BST penalty. If bows didn't hurt them, there'd be no reason not to make every unit you have possess wings.
The specs of bows is.. uh.. fine? They work well in relation to each other, since they copy lances verbatim, and nobody's been bitching about lances being overpowered.

Lances suck trufx. Even without bow weakness, fliers have all kinds of issues like not being able to camp terrain.


Reducing their pow by 1 will both reduce their effectiveness vs fliers, and make them worse critmasters than halberdiers and swordmasters on a point-for-point basis, but still has the ability to OHKO fliers with their killer weapon, can still crit people with longbows in a H/R situation, and are easier to killer crit and run.

Longbows have minus crit cause people bawwed about longbow crit and run *a legit complaint I'll bet* so please don't include that in your argument. I think most non-Yvern fliers will be OHKO'd by any melee weapon since fliers have shoddy defenses so another bad argument as I see it. I also find it funny that you left out zerkers from the critmaster realm. I'm pretty sure you could make a thread titled "do zerkers suck?".

This means you trade stats for ability.
Not unlike picking a nomad instead of a mystic. You lose 2 BST, but gain 2 MOV, and the ability to facilitate Hit/runs


Time for my actually opinions on the matter.

I feel that bows are the best weapons in the game. I THINK that bows are equal to magic but I'm pretty sure that one of thems better. People can debate about the pros/cons of each but I fell that one of them HAS to better than the other. I just haven't made up my mind.

Having said bows>>>the triangle, there is still merit within that triangle at different levels that may or may not make a nerf justifiable. At the unpromo grounds, unless I'm using an armour, I'm staying the fuck away from the weapon triangle and sticking with magic and bows. Magic and bows are WAY more powerful than triangle pieces in unpromo that it's not funny.

Promo, the stats between units becomes more variable so I think you have more options and yeah, I could justify having a halb instead of a sniper. WTA also becomes more significant since units can evade in fairly well in promo play. Keeps lances viable if you ask me since if it weren't for the fuckton of SM running around, I'd say only use swords for the crit or axes for the might. And obviously bows cause they're the best.

Mints whole argument seems to be promo centric and while the idea may be sound, you should have focused on unpromo if you asked me cause promo bows seem fine. The only reason for a nerf would be over centralization of bows and/or the other classes being underwhelming. Among critmasters *most common meleers* SMs, snipers, and halbys all seem fairly represented. Among the flyers you see lots of hawk archers but you also see Yverns/dracos and seraph knights. Hell people use peg mages so fliers seem to be doing OK. As for horse units and armors, armors don't see much use at all. Horses appear only in troub and mageknight form *pallys and things being largely non-existant* which would explain why SS(?) says that bows perks>>>>>longsword/armorslayer. Seeing things from that view, it would appear that some of the classes just suck so you'd go with the bow since the bonus that the other weapons get is irrelevant. Me using words I don't understand would say lets be progressive and make pallys and armors more alluring. That's just me.

I think that a bow nerf would make unpromo much more diverse, though thinking about it, I'm the only one that uses lots of nomads since for whatever reason lots of people think they're meh. Fine by me. Promo doesn't see much change though which seems kinda bad to me. The only thing of significance I see would be pegasi getting to save a point in the def/hp department and going somewhere else with it since reins are less gar. Less crit damage isn't that big a deal since crits only OHKO glassy units I believe and those glassy units would still be OHKO'd >_>. I don't think the nerf accomplishes much but neither does it seem to hurt overly much.

Back to bows versus magic for a quick minute. The utility of magic is superior in that it's always full power, close or far. Physicals get the boon of having +15crit/hit classes, killer weapons, and a longbow since we're talking about bow users. I would have to say though that giving magic users a crit tome Would make me want to say that Magic>>Bows in the promoted field. If you want to argue it, don't do it with me since I already know all the other sides arguments on this particular subject. Other boon that magic user have over bow users is again related to range. Since Bows are gar and horeslayers are lol, you really have to say a Wraith is much better than a hawk since wraiths don't have to deal with slayers like hawks do *once again, pallys/nomad twoopers/barbs being unused* Too finish this off, a bow user on foot 95 percent of the time gets a hit or crit boost *or both*. A magic user gets a staff. In tournies this is fair, outside of tournies, the sage gets the nod and I'm pretty sure that for all arguments about the game that comes up, we're playing promoted and not tourney. Lastly, Mint said something dumb like if magic were better than physical why would people still make physicals. That is a STUPID statement. STUPID. Tef out.

Edit:
QUOTE(Karen @ Oct 11 2009, 02:15 PM) *
Each time we try to mess with mechanics that affect other mechanics, more problems arise from it, which only creates more work.


I thought that was worth quoting. And yes, the nerf prolly won't solve the problem.

Edit 2:
QUOTE(General Gandhi @ Oct 11 2009, 11:43 AM) *
Fliers are NOT overly threatening. In unpromoted you have the wyvern fighter and rider, admittedly 2 of the better classes in unpromoted. Too bad you need 40 HP and 20 defense (which isn't going to happen on a generic without being 1 rounded by a pursuit mage) to avoid 2hko by mithril bow. Did I mention that magic can always 2hko them? You also have the pegasus archer and knight. Pegasus knights are utterly terrible due to their low power/low defense/higher luck and weapon typing. WTD vs. axes and bows can still always 2hko them. Pegasus archers have their uses, but again, bows shoot them down with ease. Then we have pegasus mages. They have extremely low defense and HP, so low that they have to invest in those stats to avoid being killed in one hit. Their high evade might warrant an archer, but a reliable bronze from any unit can hit them pretty... reliably >>;


Fliers have ISSUES. So much so that I almost want to say nerf bows, nerf the slayer but people would wall of text me saying why thats stupid and I'm an idiot. Having said that I almost want to see said theoretical arguments. I think I covered fliers but if I didn't, they're glassy enough to get OHKO'd by most crits and peg mages have to be built very specifically to survive rein OHKO's. I'm also pretty sure that all fliers minus Ob clones are easily 2hko'd by everything. Being immune to terrain is as big a disadvantage as an advantage in many cases do to not being able to terrain camp and often being put in situations where it at least appears you have to attack the camper with your units that already have shoddy acc. I stopped thinking fliers were good ever since I became good at FETO lol. Not saying that fliers are definitely not good, but you won't see me advocating them.
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SereneFlight
post Oct 14 2009, 09:06 AM
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[RANDOM]
Everything's fine... if ppl love fliers so much, it is their own problem when they see somebody who loves archers.
Same if you love armored mages if they meet somebody who loves normal mages... [/RANDOM]
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§ Hitsugaya §
post Oct 14 2009, 10:14 AM
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I'm starting to realize that bows might be a little overpowered...

But I don't know what we should do to nerf them. (So I'm not voting yet)
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Beemo
post Oct 20 2009, 02:08 AM
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QUOTE(Ted, Blue God of FETO @ Oct 13 2009, 02:45 PM) *
5/5/5s suck, don't use them unlorded. I'm being serious btw. Mike don't respond, I can already see it in my head, save yourself the energy.

A.  What the fuck do you know?  You've barely even touched promoted in your FETO career.

B.  Almost all of the 5/5/5's I use ARE lorded, so way to call me out on something that I might have agreed with you on, if you weren't such a flaming know-it-all.

C.  If you tell me not to respond, you will get an earful, and it will be worse than anything Mint's ever given you.

D.  You really shouldn't try jumping into that boat that Shaq's sinking in over there.

QUOTE(Ted, Blue God of FETO @ Oct 13 2009, 02:45 PM) *
I stopped thinking fliers were good ever since I became good at FETO lol. Not saying that fliers are definitely not good, but you won't see me advocating them.


*cough*A-Riders*cough*
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§ Hitsugaya §
post Oct 20 2009, 05:00 AM
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Fliers have advantages and disadvantages... They don't gain terrain bonus, but neither do they slow down on them which makes them good at H/R.

I find 5/5/5's to be great! I have 2, 555 lords and some unlorded they work fine as "critt masters" and pow/spd/lck (Insight).

However that's not the plot in this topic...

@Tef...
QUOTE
I think that a bow nerf would make unpromo much more diverse, though thinking about it, I'm the only one that uses lots of nomads since for whatever reason lots of people think they're meh. Fine by me.

If bows got nerfed by -1mt they would be as sword's mt. And lots of people have complained that swords sucks for the first 1-10 lvls.
I find nomads to be great.

QUOTE
Promo doesn't see much change though which seems kinda bad to me.

A and S ranks... capping at 30. Class bonus, new classes, etc...

QUOTE
Less crit damage isn't that big a deal since crits only OHKO glassy units I believe and those glassy units would still be OHKO'd >_>. I don't think the nerf accomplishes much but neither does it seem to hurt overly much.

No... For example in a gauntlet as orange/blue you don't face glassy units, and you can still manage to critt OHKO a nihil tank or at least deal heavy damage to it. I have often seen that a axe critt would kill something that a sword critt would not. Power is crucial at critts. 1-2 more power is a lot of damage in a critt for being just 1-2 points.

To lazy to answer to all of your text(and make a new wall of text people will ignore xD).
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kaishin no chikara
post Jun 17 2013, 02:00 AM
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This ain't necroing, so don't try to peg me with it. >.>

First off, before we continue, my post does not completely fix the flier problem. It fixes most of it, but pegmages will still have issues.

Anyway, onto the good stuff. Guys, I have a much better solution than a 1 MT nerf. What if we gave physical units WTA over bow units instead?

This includes the -1 MT from WTD if they're attacking a melee unit. But only on melees, not mages or other bow units. Why only melees? Because melees are the only underpowered weapon types in FETO, so only they should receive this bonus.

This way, melee units now have an advantage over those bow-using bastards. Snipers and Valiants can still do what they do best: killing things. But now melee units can completely destroy them at one range in response.

And at two range in a first strike? Well, how does decent accuracy toys against fliers with decent might sound? Maybe not the best, but it'll do.

Additionally, this fixes some of the flier problems by making wyverns and lance pegs receive a -15 penalty to be hit, effectively negating the bonus they had to be hit originally (and of course, letting lance pegs' and dracos' absurd EVA kick in). Of course, the only widely used 8 move bow units, the peg archers, will not receive this bonus. And they don't need to because they don't have problems killing units like the other 3 (staying alive is another issue, but peg archers are supposed to die easily, just like pegs and archers in the games).

pegmages are still boned. I think 3 weapon types would be awesome, but others think it'd be too broken. Not the issue right now, though.
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Falaflame
post Jun 19 2013, 09:40 PM
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I swear, if bows get a nerf, we're gonna see all-hawk teams filling up the fields.

I'd rather not see that.
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