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Random: When to Pursuit and Wrath, Pursuit Crits vs. Wrath
kryptonite
post May 26 2012, 12:44 AM
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I guess just general infos for everyone~

I think I posted this somewhere, can't find it.
Normal attack: 1x damage
Pursuit attack: 1.5x damage
Critical attack: 2.25x damage
Pursuit with 1 crit: 2.43x damage
Pursuit with 2 crits: 3.37x damage (!!!)

Those pursuit crits look tasty don't they?

You say "But Wrath gives 20% more crit! I don't want to rely on dinky 50% percentages when I can have omg 70% critz!11"

Let's approach this mathematically!

We know that pursuits are better than crits when 1+ Pursuit attacks crit.
So we want to know the threshold where you have a higher chance of landing one of two crits vs. one crit boosted by 20%.
Let c be your base crit, wc be your crit with wrath active, pc be your pursuit crit (subdivided into pc1 for 1 crit and pc2 for both crits).
So we want to know when pc > wc.
pc = pc1 + pc2.
pc1 = one attack being a crit = c(1-c) (first attack critting) + (1-c)© (second attack critting) = 2(1-c)© = (2-2c)© = 2c-2c^2
pc2 = both attacks critting = c^2
So pc = 2c-2c^2+c^2 = 2c-c^2.
wc = c+0.2 (I know, much easier, lol)
So we want to see when pc > wc, or when 2c-c^2 > c+0.2.
Moving the variables over to solve like a quadratic nets us with:
c^2 - c + .2 < 0 (I'd like to see someone factor this!)
Using our lovely quadratic formula, you get for c: {0.28, 072} (It IS a quadratic, after all!)
So for c, we get 28% and 72% for when one skill becomes better than the other.

So pursuit is better between 28% and 72%. Barring Counters and Countora, but I'm sure you knew that, especially if you read this far.

You say, why isn't one just better than the other after a while?
Well, after a while, Wrath gets almost 100% of crit, and Pursuit still has that big gap.

You can kind of check this with guess and check:
.7*.7=.49, which is close to .5 and .3+.2 = .5.

tl;dr: Pursuit crits are better when your base crit is 30%.

Obviously, if you have a Spd dump unit, Pursuit isn't an option, and same for Skl/Wrath, and you have to keep the opponent in mind, but yeah.

But keep in mind that 20 Skl vs. 30 Skl is only a difference of 5 crit... So wrynaut have sharps on your Skl-less units?

Of course, this doesn't take hit into consideration either...
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Konata Izumi
post May 26 2012, 06:47 AM
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xdxd
post May 26 2012, 08:33 AM
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SereneFlight
post May 26 2012, 09:28 AM
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QUOTE
tl;dr: Pursuit crits are better when your base crit is 30%.

Ofc, 30% crits aren't too reliable... and pursuit crits are always better.

QUOTE
But keep in mind that 20 Skl vs. 30 Skl is only a difference of 5 crit... So wrynaut have sharps on your Skl-less units?

Of course, this doesn't take hit into consideration either...

And just cuz hit, not too good idea :/ sure they can hit vs. Dual tanks and other SPD dumpers. (probably nihil tanks too, if not WTD).
But I'd rather have like Heavy Great. Less luck needed for heavy damage.
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kryptonite
post May 26 2012, 12:25 PM
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You can have Mithril sharp and heavy great... It's nice to have trump cards, which you don't when your whole item cache is reliable. XD

As for the 30% Crit, I mean that is before Wrath. It's 50% after Wrath, but also 50% to crit once or twice with Pursuit
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Axel Almer
post May 26 2012, 01:00 PM
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QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ May 26 2012, 10:25 PM) *
You can have Mithril sharp and heavy great... It's nice to have trump cards, which you don't when your whole item cache is reliable. XD

As for the 30% Crit, I mean that is before Wrath. It's 50% after Wrath, but also 50% to crit once or twice with Pursuit


You have to kill a dual tank somehow, either they pwn you 90% of the time or you have to have an affair with the RNG to kill them, usually reduced to a weakened state. Also, you'll only have those abnormal crit rates without pursuit if you use Sharps/critmasters and your opponents unit has shit luck which is what they deserve.

LCK and SKL have their own usefulness for some reason(they're mostly ignored in favour of more important stats after all), and pursuit was once already nerfed in case you don't know. Also, SKL is the normally the least stat you will see maxed as people prefer LCK on certain units over SKL due to Insight, evasion and Crit evasion.
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kryptonite
post May 26 2012, 01:51 PM
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I think you mean without Wrath, but you're right. As for Luc and Skl though, people do use those as of nowadays, although usually on just 1-2 units out of 6. >_>

I think I was here at the end of pursuit pre-nerf. I used to make 27 Spd units and 25 Spd generals at least. >_> And no one used Wrath... ever. lol
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Axel Almer
post May 26 2012, 02:40 PM
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QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ May 26 2012, 11:51 PM) *
I think you mean without Wrath, but you're right. As for Luc and Skl though, people do use those as of nowadays, although usually on just 1-2 units out of 6. >_>


Like I said, most do not max it, especially normal players. And yes I meant without wrath, as you wouldn't be able to pursuit then, I thought it was obvious.
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kryptonite
post May 26 2012, 03:16 PM
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I meant this part:
QUOTE
Also, you'll only have those abnormal crit rates without pursuit if you use Sharps/critmasters and your opponents unit has shit luck which is what they deserve.


But yeah...
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Axel Almer
post May 26 2012, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ May 27 2012, 01:16 AM) *
I meant this part:
QUOTE
Also, you'll only have those abnormal crit rates without pursuit if you use Sharps/critmasters and your opponents unit has shit luck which is what they deserve.


But yeah...

herpderp, I meant without wrath. >_>
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Falaflame
post May 26 2012, 06:36 PM
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Skylessia Characters
#1



The dangerous situation of pursuit critting is when you've got an asshole cleric->druid with 25-26 def/res with countora loaded on you.

Of course, that's when I have lords like this:

Archer -> Sniper [Brute]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [1/12.5%]: 58.00
POW [2/15%]: 30.00
SKL [1/10%]: 30.00
SPD [2/17.5%]: 28.00
DEF [2/15%]: 25.00
RES [0/0%]: 13.00
LCK [0/0%]: 16.00
Pursuit/Wrath

I could just slap a Ward on him so he survives 2 Gesps, pursuit crit the guy in the face and not be afraid of counters.

Or if I wanted to play safe...

Archer -> Sniper [Brute]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [1/15%]: 60.00
POW [2/15%]: 30.00
SKL [1/0%]: 26.00
SPD [2/12.5%]: 26.00
DEF [2/15%]: 25.00
RES [0/12.5%]: 18.00
LCK [0/0%]: 16.00
Pursuit/Wrath

Slap a ward on him and he's a DT pretty much, and he can still pursuit crit dumpers with regularity.


There's probably more units you could possibly hurt besides just DTs I'd imagine. The only problem I might have is armored units, but lol@sending bow users against armors.
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Recamen
post May 27 2012, 12:03 PM
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I noticed that too. Besides, the RNG hates me with a burning passion and relishes making me miss otherwise not terrible first strikes. Why in the world would I want to put my money in one super-crit when the RNG hates me when I can get two reliable strikes and maybe have that one occasion when it's drunk off its ass and can't get up to fuck with me?

On the other hand, I feel like at the same time, that's why everybody and their dog puts so much into Speed. All it does is just allow neither unit to use skills, and then where's your advantage? Might as well take the extra crit then, 'cuz getting that second strike can be rare. I've even gone so far as to make Spd my dump stat with a new team I'm raising to create dual tanks instead, 'cuz 1) the RNG hates me and avoid will virtually never work, and 2) Double Counters / Auroras. They'll still miss a lot, but quantity of misses > one miss is how I look at it.

And it'll probably still get crushed on a regular basis once they all promote, but what's a guy to do?
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Meneil
post May 27 2012, 09:43 PM
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In terms of how it's used, my favorite lord has been this:

Soldier -> Halberdier [Balanced]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/0%]: 52.00
POW [2/20%]: 30.00
SKL [0/10%]: 26.00
SPD [2/20%]: 30.00
DEF [0/0%]: 19.00
RES [0/0%]: 12.00
LCK [2/20%]: 28.00

With Pursuit/Insight as its main skills. Double-critting isn't that hard on this one, cause yeah, I haven't had such good luck with Wrath personally.
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