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New Class Discussion
Falaflame
post Nov 22 2013, 07:52 PM
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I've taken a look at the coding (in a screen-share call with sirocyl) and I'm happy to say that it is possible to add new classes. The coding is set up where adding a class is just as easy as adding a new battle type.

Because of this, new classes may or may not be added to the new version of FETO coming up, but for now, please take the discussions here.

Classes Currently In Limbo (that can be discussed):
WTA3 Mages
Sword/Light Class
Lance/Anima Class
Dark/Axe Class
Pegasus Rider (Sword Peg Unpromote)
Wyvern Lancer (Lance Wyvern Unpromote)
Hawk Master (Sword Hawk Promote)
Dracoknight (Lance Draco Promote)
Curate > Clairvoyant
Fighter > Hero
Fighter > Foot Lance/Axe Class (undetermined name)
Mercenary > Infantry
Mercenary > Ranger
Soldier > Foot Lance/Axe Class (undetermined name)
Soldier > Foot Lance/Bow Class (undetermined name)
Archer > Warrior
Archer > Foot Lance/Bow Class (undetermined name)
3rd Tiers

Classes not to be discussed:
Bow Troubs (Makes flying units in whole negligible)
Master Knights/Barons (Unbalanced "God Classes" and may be removed)
Manakete (Balancing issues)
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Nohrian Lord S-IX
post Nov 22 2013, 10:01 PM
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QUOTE(Falaflame @ Nov 22 2013, 06:52 PM) *
I've taken a look at the coding (in a screen-share call with sirocyl) and I'm happy to say that it is possible to add new classes. The coding is set up where adding a class is just as easy as adding a new battle type.

Because of this, new classes may or may not be added to the new version of FETO coming up, but for now, please take the discussions here.

Classes Currently In Limbo (that can be discussed):
WTA3 Mages
Sword/Light Class
Lance/Anima Class
Dark/Axe Class
Pegasus Rider (Sword Peg Unpromote)
Wyvern Lancer (Lance Wyvern Unpromote)
Hawk Master (Sword Hawk Promote)
Dracoknight (Lance Draco Promote)
Curate > Clairvoyant
3rd Tiers

Classes not to be discussed:
Bow Troubs (Makes flying units in whole negligible)
Master Knights/Barons (Unbalanced "God Classes" and may be removed)
Manakete (Balancing issues)


QUOTE(Blade Lord S-IX @ Mar 31 2013, 09:10 PM) *
If Hybrid classes ever appeared on the face of FETO~

(IMG:http://i49.tinypic.com/2vtbn6r.jpg)

Name: Executioner
Wpns: Axe/Dark
Tier: 2nd


Honestly, I'm good and ready for some new classes, aside from hybrids, there are quite a few other class/combinations we haven't used. Lance/Bow on foot, Lance/Axe on foot (on foot = non-mage/armor/mount)
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kryptonite
post Nov 23 2013, 12:00 AM
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Like I said before, FETO is already bloated with unused classes so there should be a mass purging of classes/re-assignment of classes first...

I mean I can say off the bat lance draco will be unused.

Also melee/magic is all but broken unless they had terrible stats like 25 Pow and no pros.
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fensti
post Nov 23 2013, 11:54 AM
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I think adding classes is a little more difficult than just adding a battle type. Battle types can just be coded in. Classes have to be put in the database and also added to the code so we can see what their base stats are and such.

Probably not going to purge any classes since we can support having this many classes on the server and such and that characters exist for every class and I'm not sure what exactly would happen if we up and deleted classes.

I can also fiddle around with classes and items now, so if you want to make threads about changing other classes or items feel free to do that. (IMG:style_emoticons/blue/happy.gif)
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Falaflame
post Nov 23 2013, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ Nov 23 2013, 12:00 AM) *
Like I said before, FETO is already bloated with unused classes so there should be a mass purging of classes/re-assignment of classes first...

I mean I can say off the bat lance draco will be unused.

Also melee/magic is all but broken unless they had terrible stats like 25 Pow and no pros.

The lance draco is an option for those who do not want to rely on insight and dodging and want to tank. Furthermore, it gives people the option to promote to Wyvern Lords and Wyvern Masters with B lances as opposed to D.

Ergo, a sword peg also gives people the option to promote to Peregrine Knights and Falcoknights with B swords as opposed to D. It also gives them the choice between wanting a physical insighter on their team (dracos) and a magic-based insighter (hawks). It's all up to pure taste.

And before you say "LOLOL NON-HAWKS SUX NO ONE WILL USE THEM LOLOL", that's what this sub-forum is here for. You're going to post changes on how to balance them so they don't suck. There have been ideas floating around to make non-hawks viable. Please take note of them.

So whether or not you think they will be unused is a negligible point.

The Melee/Magic classes was included for discussion because there ARE ways to balance it. We've discussed them in the past. We can discuss them here.

Also added to the list in the first post:

Fighter > Hero
Fighter > Foot Lance/Axe Class (undetermined name)
Mercenary > Infantry
Mercenary > Ranger
Soldier > Foot Lance/Axe Class (undetermined name)
Soldier > Foot Lance/Bow Class (undetermined name)
Archer > Warrior
Archer > Foot Lance/Bow Class (undetermined name)
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LeaderR Elliot
post Nov 23 2013, 04:14 PM
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QUOTE(Falaflame @ Nov 23 2013, 04:56 PM) *
QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ Nov 23 2013, 12:00 AM) *
Like I said before, FETO is already bloated with unused classes so there should be a mass purging of classes/re-assignment of classes first...

I mean I can say off the bat lance draco will be unused.

Also melee/magic is all but broken unless they had terrible stats like 25 Pow and no pros.

The lance draco is an option for those who do not want to go through the arduous pain of raising a Peg Knight unpromoted. Also it gives a lance option that's probably the best lance option you have for unpromotes.



So you want something that outclasses all unpromoted lance options while removing peg knights only niche? nice balance
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Falaflame
post Nov 23 2013, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE(LeaderR Elliot @ Nov 23 2013, 04:14 PM) *
QUOTE(Falaflame @ Nov 23 2013, 04:56 PM) *
QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ Nov 23 2013, 12:00 AM) *
Like I said before, FETO is already bloated with unused classes so there should be a mass purging of classes/re-assignment of classes first...

I mean I can say off the bat lance draco will be unused.

Also melee/magic is all but broken unless they had terrible stats like 25 Pow and no pros.

The lance draco is an option for those who do not want to go through the arduous pain of raising a Peg Knight unpromoted. Also it gives a lance option that's probably the best lance option you have for unpromotes.



So you want something that outclasses all unpromoted lance options while removing peg knights only niche? nice balance

My head must've been so far up my ass when I made that post. I'll just edit it, really. Sorry for that. I tend to have braindead moments at times.

Even still, how do you consider that a "niche" anyway? That's like saying adding Dark Kns to the game removes Shaman's niche because they both use Dark Magic.

Wyvern Lances do the same thing as Peg Knights -- flying utilitizers with lances. Except one's better at dodging and insighting, and the other one's better at tanking.
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fensti
post Nov 23 2013, 06:21 PM
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Also, I believe I can add a fourth class change option if that is needed. Not 100% sure on that since I'll need to look it over first.
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LeaderR Elliot
post Nov 23 2013, 08:06 PM
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QUOTE
s
[07:00:00 p.m. | still all dracos outclass lance peg in unpromo ('cause bulk>whatever peg knt has)
[07:00:57 p.m. | Edited 07:01:56 p.m.] Elliot Gutierrrez: and peg knight niche is only lance unit with wings which is a pretty bad niche as you have said... Thus making them less unique etc
[07:02:25 p.m.] Elliot Gutierrrez: and dodging/insighting in unpromo only happens in sadrenaline
[07:02:35 p.m.] Elliot Gutierrrez: Sadrenaline is the devil


that beign said 4th promotion tree would be good for mercenary if you give them nomad trooper. that was speedy idea



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Falaflame
post Nov 23 2013, 08:37 PM
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@Elliot: Dodging/Insighting can still be viable in unpromotes, as you said with Sadistic, Adrenaline, or heck even both. And even if it isn't in other modes, it definitely is viable on most modes in promotes. Peg Knights still have a use.

@fensti: I actually thinking branching can go as far as 5. That way more options for foot units can be used.

For example, Mercenaries can promote to 5 different foot promotions:

Swordmaster
Trueblade
Hero
Ranger
Infantry

Not saying ALL classes HAVE to have 5 promotions, because some classes theoretically can't (like most mounted units) but it gives more flexibility to the classes you can do it with. Tired of Warriors starting with Ds in bows as opposed to Bs? Pick an Archer then.
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Nohrian Lord S-IX
post Nov 23 2013, 10:48 PM
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QUOTE(Falaflame @ Nov 23 2013, 07:37 PM) *
@Elliot: Dodging/Insighting can still be viable in unpromotes, as you said with Sadistic, Adrenaline, or heck even both. And even if it isn't in other modes, it definitely is viable on most modes in promotes. Peg Knights still have a use.

@fensti: I actually thinking branching can go as far as 5. That way more options for foot units can be used.

For example, Mercenaries can promote to 5 different foot promotions:

Swordmaster
Trueblade
Hero
Ranger
Infantry

Not saying ALL classes HAVE to have 5 promotions, because some classes theoretically can't (like most mounted units) but it gives more flexibility to the classes you can do it with. Tired of Warriors starting with Ds in bows as opposed to Bs? Pick an Archer then.


I actually like that idea Fal,

could that mean we could have Clerics -> Heaven kn promotes? or something along those lines?

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just hit me, curate -> troubs
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kryptonite
post Nov 24 2013, 12:25 AM
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QUOTE(fensti @ Nov 23 2013, 11:54 AM) *
Probably not going to purge any classes since we can support having this many classes on the server and such and that characters exist for every class and I'm not sure what exactly would happen if we up and deleted classes.

I can also fiddle around with classes and items now, so if you want to make threads about changing other classes or items feel free to do that. (IMG:style_emoticons/blue/happy.gif)

It's not a space issue, but more of a "too many classes (IMG:style_emoticons/blue/blargagh.gif) " issue. It's like having the option to use any Pokemon thrust onto a newbie. Newcomers would choose classes that are familiar or look cool, while oldies will optimize and only use the "OU" classes with "Smogon" builds. And the list of classes, already huge, will become even larger. Although I do understand the appeal of having the option over not.

QUOTE
And before you say "LOLOL NON-HAWKS SUX NO ONE WILL USE THEM LOLOL", that's what this sub-forum is here for. You're going to post changes on how to balance them so they don't suck. There have been ideas floating around to make non-hawks viable. Please take note of them.

Any difference between classes is inherently unfair. I mean currently from a numbers perspective, it is "balanced," in other to make it balanced, you have to remove differences between each option.

I mean right now Pow is king, Axes/Bows/Dark are top tier, Bows >= Magic > Melee. So to balance, what are you going to do? Axes/Dark don't give +1 Atk on WTA? Melee is WTA over non-melee? You'd just have a huge cluster ala Fairy type.

As for huge list of incoming classes for every single possible conceivable niche, that:
- Takes away each classes individuality
- Ironically polarizes the game

Example:
Which class is canon to FE: Valkyrie, War Medic, or Holy Knight? Which one is the most used?

Not to say that FE is the pinnacle of balance, but having every possible option available inevitably has the "pros" flock to the best (or anti-best) option available.
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Falaflame
post Nov 24 2013, 05:57 AM
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QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ Nov 24 2013, 12:25 AM) *
QUOTE
And before you say "LOLOL NON-HAWKS SUX NO ONE WILL USE THEM LOLOL", that's what this sub-forum is here for. You're going to post changes on how to balance them so they don't suck. There have been ideas floating around to make non-hawks viable. Please take note of them.

Any difference between classes is inherently unfair. I mean currently from a numbers perspective, it is "balanced," in other to make it balanced, you have to remove differences between each option.


Please tell me how hawks having the +15 avoid to counteract the +10 hit rate bows have on them, while peregrines, falcos, and seraphs don't is "balanced". Every non-hawk ever, especially unlorded, is braved to death. There's only 2 ways to fix this, and that's to:
1. Nerf bows, or
2. Remove the +10 hit effectiveness against non-hawks (but keep the dmg multiplier)

But that's an entirely different discussion and will have to be taken elsewhere as it is off-topic.

QUOTE
I mean right now Pow is king, Axes/Bows/Dark are top tier, Bows >= Magic > Melee. So to balance, what are you going to do? Axes/Dark don't give +1 Atk on WTA? Melee is WTA over non-melee? You'd just have a huge cluster ala Fairy type.


Please link me to a thread saying Axes/Dark don't get +1 on WTA as a suggestion.

Also weren't you the one discussing about WTA against bows? or was it Kaishin? I really don't remember.

Either way, I had none of those in mind.

QUOTE
As for huge list of incoming classes for every single possible conceivable niche, that:
- Takes away each classes individuality
- Ironically polarizes the game

Example:
Which class is canon to FE: Valkyrie, War Medic, or Holy Knight? Which one is the most used?


How does having a WTA3 Mage take away any individuality? As far as I know, mages could only get up to WTA2. And also please give me an example of how having Mercenaries promoting into Infantries and Archers promoting into Warriors "polarizing"? Because if the example you gave is the best example you can come up with for those two points you made, we're going to be talking for a long time.

QUOTE
Not to say that FE is the pinnacle of balance, but having every possible option available inevitably has the "pros" flock to the best (or anti-best) option available.


What the "pros" do is entirely their business, and ultimately, their prerogative. If they want to run all Axe/Dark/Bows, let them. Because in the end, all we're debating about is a luck-based tactics game that has either generous RNG or unforgiving RNG, depending on the player themselves.
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kryptonite
post Nov 24 2013, 10:28 AM
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QUOTE
Please tell me how hawks having the +15 avoid to counteract the +10 hit rate bows have on them, while peregrines, falcos, and seraphs don't is "balanced". Every non-hawk ever, especially unlorded, is braved to death. There's only 2 ways to fix this, and that's to:
1. Nerf bows, or
2. Remove the +10 hit effectiveness against non-hawks (but keep the dmg multiplier)

They get to use 2 weapons instead and have the same stat distribution.

QUOTE
Either way, I had none of those in mind.

I didn't mention that you did, was just throwing out ideas.

What I mean is to balance things you don't throw in new things to counter things in the game ala Magic/Pokemon.

QUOTE
How does having a WTA3 Mage take away any individuality? As far as I know, mages could only get up to WTA2. And also please give me an example of how having Mercenaries promoting into Infantries and Archers promoting into Warriors "polarizing"? Because if the example you gave is the best example you can come up with for those two points you made, we're going to be talking for a long time.

WTA3 mages is for option 2. There isn't much of a reason to use WTA2 mages if WTA3 mages existed unless maybe if they had a crippling weakness like generals.

Didn't *stares at you* Merc promotions would polarize the game-- ironically if you gave 5 branches to every class, mercs would be the most unused because of their awful stat distribution. Everyone would run Fighter -> Hero and people unfortunate to have Merc promos would cry as they delegate them to their trash pile.

tl;dr: When you have multiple options, why not always go for the best? I mean unless you have teams of 6 Clerics/Heaven Knights that is, but if that's the optimum, then why not train 6 squads to raise them up and then ditch the other characters? :P

QUOTE
What the "pros" do is entirely their business, and ultimately, their prerogative. If they want to run all Axe/Dark/Bows, let them. Because in the end, all we're debating about is a luck-based tactics game that has either generous RNG or unforgiving RNG, depending on the player themselves.

So we are adding tons of branches and new classes, and most of them are newbie fodder I mean, never used. It's like Pokemon-- No one runs a Sunflora on their team.
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LeonusStarwalker
post Nov 24 2013, 04:09 PM
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I'm no expert on the game or anything but I would absolutely love to have some weapon/magic classes.
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