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New Class Discussion
Falaflame
post Nov 24 2013, 04:28 PM
Post #16


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QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ Nov 24 2013, 10:28 AM) *
They get to use 2 weapons instead and have the same stat distribution.


And how exactly would that make up for the +10 hit bows have against them? There's a reason why they're never used in the metagame unless lorded, and even lorded, it's a stretch because you have so many better options.

QUOTE
I didn't mention that you did, was just throwing out ideas.

What I mean is to balance things you don't throw in new things to counter things in the game ala Magic/Pokemon.


lol don't worry, these things aren't going to be added in without immense discussion and ways to balance it. Then it'd be like Sonic 2006 all over again. As far as balancing existing things to add these classes in, that will be talked about here. I didn't make this thread to say "oh hey these classes are getting added on month/day/year. This thread is to consider the pros and cons of these classes, and how it would affect the current gameplay.

QUOTE
WTA3 mages is for option 2. There isn't much of a reason to use WTA2 mages if WTA3 mages existed unless maybe if they had a crippling weakness like generals.


Ironically that's what I was thinking about. Mages can get WTA3, but they have to be stuck with 5 mov just like any WTA3 class would. Also considering a 70 HP/35 res cap for them as well as a tome exclusively effective against them. As far as existing WTA2 mages? They will have 1 more move, and different caps from WTA3 Mages. Also immunity to said weapon. That's more than enough reason.

QUOTE
tl;dr: When you have multiple options, why not always go for the best? I mean unless you have teams of 6 Clerics/Heaven Knights that is, but if that's the optimum, then why not train 6 squads to raise them up and then ditch the other characters? :P


There is no single best unit, really. You may think War Meds are hot stuff, but what happens if they run into a Valk? Or worse yet, a dracolord? Also, aren't actual mages and peg mages better at offense than their healer comparisons, which are better for defense?

I'd like to see how the balance is that bad where everyone's running axe/dark/bows. In fact, I've rarely seen an axe user lately in my last 50 battles. I've seen some darks, and a ton of bows, but that's about it.

QUOTE
So we are adding tons of branches and new classes, and most of them are newbie fodder I mean, never used. It's like Pokemon-- No one runs a Sunflora on their team.


No one has to run a Sunflora on their team. That's my main point. And if existing classes are that bad where a buff is necessary, that can be discussed too. I don't mind taking time out of my busy schedule to discuss things like this. I have no problem with it. But don't go around saying "adding new classes" are a terrible idea. They're only bad if they're added without any discussions, and without any balance whatsoever.
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kryptonite
post Nov 24 2013, 06:36 PM
Post #17


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QUOTE
And how exactly would that make up for the +10 hit bows have against them? There's a reason why they're never used in the metagame unless lorded, and even lorded, it's a stretch because you have so many better options.

And thus is my second point that differences between classes are inherently unfair.

QUOTE
Ironically that's what I was thinking about. Mages can get WTA3, but they have to be stuck with 5 mov just like any WTA3 class would. Also considering a 70 HP/35 res cap for them as well as a tome exclusively effective against them. As far as existing WTA2 mages? They will have 1 more move, and different caps from WTA3 Mages. Also immunity to said weapon. That's more than enough reason.

Okay, so we're adding a ton of stuff to make sure that they're usable and don't destroy the game. And not to derail the argument and stuff, but WTA2 mages were originally balanced by being weak to magic. Basically like the warder WTA2 branch. And we can see how popular those are...

QUOTE
There is no single best unit, really. You may think War Meds are hot stuff, but what happens if they run into a Valk? Or worse yet, a dracolord? Also, aren't actual mages and peg mages better at offense than their healer comparisons, which are better for defense?

I'd like to see how the balance is that bad where everyone's running axe/dark/bows. In fact, I've rarely seen an axe user lately in my last 50 battles. I've seen some darks, and a ton of bows, but that's about it.

That's why you don't only use one type of unit.

I don't want to theorytard, but WM/Bishop/Druid/Sniper/H&R fodder/??? Valk? Sniper or mage avoids that WTA. Bishop? Counter with your own, or a WM. Nowhere is a Cavachamp seen or a Curatepromo around.

But... you are correct about the axes.

Shad didn't need any for the last couple tournies. Admittedly there was 1 non-dark/bow in each squad. Out of 6. :/

QUOTE
No one has to run a Sunflora on their team. That's my main point. And if existing classes are that bad where a buff is necessary, that can be discussed too. I don't mind taking time out of my busy schedule to discuss things like this. I have no problem with it. But don't go around saying "adding new classes" are a terrible idea. They're only bad if they're added without any discussions, and without any balance whatsoever.

Well, existing classes need buffs and some are very extraneous (like the bow gens, WTA2 warders, a bunch of horsies, etc.).
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Nohrian Lord S-IX
post Nov 24 2013, 09:50 PM
Post #18

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Custom made stat calc just for this occasion. courtesy of Krypto and Myself

Found an error, updated link~
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kryptonite
post Nov 25 2013, 01:02 AM
Post #19


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Real quick, it seems the drop down menu broke. :/

Warder -> Radiant: Sword/Light: Click Here To Show/Hide This Text
Warder -> Radiant [Balanced]
Stats at level 1
HP [0/0%]: 22.60
POW [0/0%]: 7.30
SKL [0/0%]: 7.30
SPD [0/0%]: 6.35
DEF [0/0%]: 4.15
RES [0/0%]: 8.40
LCK [0/0%]: 4.20

Promo Gains:
+2 HP, +1 Skl, +2 Spd, +1 Luc (only 6 as opposed to 10)

Warder -> Radiant [Balanced]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [0/0%]: 48.00
POW [0/0%]: 19.00
SKL [0/0%]: 20.00
SPD [0/0%]: 22.00
DEF [0/0%]: 10.00
RES [0/0%]: 24.00
LCK [0/0%]: 13.00

"Optimum Build"
Warder -> Radiant [Brute]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [1/0%]: 50.00
POW [2/5%]: 25.00 [MAX]
SKL [1/15%]: 29.00
SPD [2/20%]: 30.00
DEF [0/0%]: 12.00
RES [0/0%]: 22.00
LCK [0/0%]: 11.00
Pursuit/Wrath


Assailant -> Ascetic: Axe/Anima: Click Here To Show/Hide This Text
Assailant [Balanced]
Stats at level 1
HP [0/0%]: 22.60
POW [0/0%]: 9.35
SKL [0/0%]: 7.25
SPD [0/0%]: 6.30
DEF [0/0%]: 4.20
RES [0/0%]: 6.40
LCK [0/0%]: 4.20

Promo gains:
+4 HP, +1 Spd, +1 Def, +1 Res

Assailant -> Ascetic [Balanced]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [0/0%]: 50.00
POW [0/0%]: 23.00
SKL [0/0%]: 17.00
SPD [0/0%]: 19.00
DEF [0/0%]: 13.00
RES [0/0%]: 23.00
LCK [0/0%]: 12.00

"Optimum Build"
Assailant -> Ascetic [Defensive]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [1/10%]: 60.00
POW [2/5%]: 25.00
SKL [0/0%]: 15.00
SPD [0/0%]: 21.00
DEF [2/20%]: 25.00
RES [2/5%]: 29.00
LCK [0/0%]: 10.00
Aurora/Counter


Pikeman -> Oracle: Lance/Dark: Click Here To Show/Hide This Text
Pikeman [Balanced]
Stats at level 1
HP [0/0%]: 22.60
POW [0/0%]: 8.35
SKL [0/0%]: 7.25
SPD [0/0%]: 6.30
DEF [0/0%]: 4.15
RES [0/0%]: 7.40
LCK [0/0%]: 4.25

Promo gains:
+2 HP, +1 Skl, +1 Spd, +1 Def, +1 Luc

Pikeman -> Centurion [Balanced]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [0/0%]: 48.00
POW [0/0%]: 22.00
SKL [0/0%]: 18.00
SPD [0/0%]: 19.00
DEF [0/0%]: 11.00
RES [0/0%]: 23.00
LCK [0/0%]: 15.00

"Optimum Build"
Pikeman -> Centurion [Rogue]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [1/0%]: 50.00
POW [1/10%]: 25.00
SKL [2/15%]: 28.00
SPD [1/20%]: 30.00
DEF [1/0%]: 14.00
RES [0/0%]: 21.00
LCK [0/0%]: 15.00
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Falaflame
post Nov 25 2013, 02:43 AM
Post #20


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#1



QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ Nov 25 2013, 01:02 AM) *
Real quick, it seems the drop down menu broke. :/

Warder -> Radiant: Sword/Light: Click Here To Show/Hide This Text
Warder -> Radiant [Balanced]
Stats at level 1
HP [0/0%]: 22.60
POW [0/0%]: 7.30
SKL [0/0%]: 7.30
SPD [0/0%]: 6.35
DEF [0/0%]: 4.15
RES [0/0%]: 8.40
LCK [0/0%]: 4.20

Promo Gains:
+2 HP, +1 Skl, +2 Spd, +1 Luc (only 6 as opposed to 10)

Warder -> Radiant [Balanced]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [0/0%]: 48.00
POW [0/0%]: 19.00
SKL [0/0%]: 20.00
SPD [0/0%]: 22.00
DEF [0/0%]: 10.00
RES [0/0%]: 24.00
LCK [0/0%]: 13.00

"Optimum Build"
Warder -> Radiant [Brute]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [1/0%]: 50.00
POW [2/5%]: 25.00 [MAX]
SKL [1/15%]: 29.00
SPD [2/20%]: 30.00
DEF [0/0%]: 12.00
RES [0/0%]: 22.00
LCK [0/0%]: 11.00
Pursuit/Wrath


Assailant -> Ascetic: Axe/Anima: Click Here To Show/Hide This Text
Assailant [Balanced]
Stats at level 1
HP [0/0%]: 22.60
POW [0/0%]: 9.35
SKL [0/0%]: 7.25
SPD [0/0%]: 6.30
DEF [0/0%]: 4.20
RES [0/0%]: 6.40
LCK [0/0%]: 4.20

Promo gains:
+4 HP, +1 Spd, +1 Def, +1 Res

Assailant -> Ascetic [Balanced]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [0/0%]: 50.00
POW [0/0%]: 23.00
SKL [0/0%]: 17.00
SPD [0/0%]: 19.00
DEF [0/0%]: 13.00
RES [0/0%]: 23.00
LCK [0/0%]: 12.00

"Optimum Build"
Assailant -> Ascetic [Defensive]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [1/10%]: 60.00
POW [2/5%]: 25.00
SKL [0/0%]: 15.00
SPD [0/0%]: 21.00
DEF [2/20%]: 25.00
RES [2/5%]: 29.00
LCK [0/0%]: 10.00
Aurora/Counter


Pikeman -> Oracle: Lance/Dark: Click Here To Show/Hide This Text
Pikeman [Balanced]
Stats at level 1
HP [0/0%]: 22.60
POW [0/0%]: 8.35
SKL [0/0%]: 7.25
SPD [0/0%]: 6.30
DEF [0/0%]: 4.15
RES [0/0%]: 7.40
LCK [0/0%]: 4.25

Promo gains:
+2 HP, +1 Skl, +1 Spd, +1 Def, +1 Luc

Pikeman -> Centurion [Balanced]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [0/0%]: 48.00
POW [0/0%]: 22.00
SKL [0/0%]: 18.00
SPD [0/0%]: 19.00
DEF [0/0%]: 11.00
RES [0/0%]: 23.00
LCK [0/0%]: 15.00

"Optimum Build"
Pikeman -> Centurion [Rogue]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [1/0%]: 50.00
POW [1/10%]: 25.00
SKL [2/15%]: 28.00
SPD [1/20%]: 30.00
DEF [1/0%]: 14.00
RES [0/0%]: 21.00
LCK [0/0%]: 15.00


Weren't we also posting builds based off of bmages, too?
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Freeze
post Nov 25 2013, 06:23 AM
Post #21


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Why does the ascetic get 7 stats on promotion and the other 2 only 6? Other than that good work guys!
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Nohrian Lord S-IX
post Nov 25 2013, 06:36 AM
Post #22

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Gladiator [Balanced]
Stats at level 1
HP [0/0%]: 18.00
POW [0/0%]: 6.00
SKL [0/0%]: 6.00
SPD [0/0%]: 8.00
DEF [0/0%]: 6.00
RES [0/0%]: 4.00
LCK [0/0%]: 8.00

Gladiator [Balanced]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 28.00
POW [0/0%]: 11.00
SKL [0/0%]: 13.00
SPD [0/0%]: 15.00
DEF [0/0%]: 11.00
RES [0/0%]: 7.00
LCK [0/0%]: 14.00

Gladiator -> "Radiant" [Balanced]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [/0%]: 40.00
POW [/0%]: 17.00
SKL [0/0%]: 21.00
SPD [/0%]: 23.00
DEF [0/0%]: 16.00
RES [0/0%]: 12.00
LCK [0/0%]: 21.00
Promoted Bases at 20/20

Gladiator -> "Radiant" [Glass Cannon]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [1/0%]: 40.00
POW [2/10%]: 25.00
SKL [0/10%]: 27.00
SPD [1/10%]: 30.00
DEF [0/0%]: 14.00
RES [0/0%]: 10.00
LCK [2/10%]: 27.00


Gladiator -> "Radiant" [Glass Cannon]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/15%]: 54.00
POW [2/10%]: 25.00
SKL [0/12.5%]: 28.00
SPD [1/10%]: 30.00
DEF [0/0%]: 14.00
RES [1/5%]: 13.00
LCK [2/17.5%]: 30.00
Sword/Light
Pursuit/Insight
\lord

@Fal, I based the Physical ones off of B.Mages

came up with Gladiator if we don't wanna alter the already existing classes

edit: btw I'll update the link again when i get home tonight, also be sure to save in your latest version of excel, not doing so causes problems
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kryptonite
post Nov 25 2013, 12:08 PM
Post #23


Desolate Soul
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QUOTE(HauntedChains @ Nov 25 2013, 06:23 AM) *
Why does the ascetic get 7 stats on promotion and the other 2 only 6? Other than that good work guys!

It's because 2 HP is worth 1 of another stat-- so technically they all get 5, haha.
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kryptonite
post Nov 26 2013, 02:00 AM
Post #24


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Actually, I think a WTA3 mage could be balanced without 5 Mov, anti-tome, and generally being bottom tier because of LongbowORKOs.

Ironically, make it have bad Res, just like current WTA2 mages. And to not outclass current WTA2 mages, make its Def lower as well.
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Nohrian Lord S-IX
post Nov 26 2013, 06:21 AM
Post #25

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I'll come up with some more builds tomorrow
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Freeze
post Nov 26 2013, 07:23 AM
Post #26


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QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ Nov 25 2013, 06:08 PM) *
QUOTE(HauntedChains @ Nov 25 2013, 06:23 AM) *
Why does the ascetic get 7 stats on promotion and the other 2 only 6? Other than that good work guys!

It's because 2 HP is worth 1 of another stat-- so technically they all get 5, haha.


O, right. I wasn't using my brain.
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Falaflame
post Nov 27 2013, 05:08 PM
Post #27


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#1



QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ Nov 26 2013, 02:00 AM) *
Actually, I think a WTA3 mage could be balanced without 5 Mov, anti-tome, and generally being bottom tier because of LongbowORKOs.

Ironically, make it have bad Res, just like current WTA2 mages. And to not outclass current WTA2 mages, make its Def lower as well.

it still gets ORKO'd by longbows even with 70 HP?
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kryptonite
post Nov 27 2013, 08:41 PM
Post #28


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Generals get critted to death by magic a lot
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Nohrian Lord S-IX
post Nov 28 2013, 04:31 PM
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Gladiator -> "Parivir" [Glass Cannon]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [0/2.5%]: 40.00
POW [2/7.5%]: 25.00
SKL [0/7.5%]: 27.00
SPD [2/10%]: 30.00
DEF [0/0%]: 15.00
RES [0/0%]: 9.00
LCK [2/12.5%]: 27.00

Hermit -> "Oracle" [Bulky]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [1/2.5%]: 52.00
POW [1/7.5%]: 25.00
SKL [2/12.5%]: 27.00
SPD [0/0%]: 12.00
DEF [0/5%]: 25.00
RES [2/7.5%]: 25.00
LCK [0/0%]: 11.00


Hermit -> "Oracle" [Balanced]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [0/0%]: 44.00
POW [0/0%]: 19.00
SKL [0/0%]: 22.00
SPD [0/0%]: 14.00
DEF [0/0%]: 21.00
RES [0/0%]: 18.00
LCK [0/0%]: 13.00

Hermit [Bulky]
Stats at level 20
HP [1/20%]: 40.00
POW [1/10%]: 17.00
SKL [2/0%]: 14.00
SPD [0/0%]: 9.00
DEF [0/5%]: 16.00
RES [2/5%]: 15.00
LCK [0/0%]: 8.00


Hermit [Balanced]
Stats at level 1
HP [0/0%]: 19.00
POW [0/0%]: 8.00
SKL [0/0%]: 6.00
SPD [0/0%]: 6.00
DEF [0/0%]: 7.00
RES [0/0%]: 6.00
LCK [0/0%]: 5.00

Hermit [Balanced]
Stats at level 20
HP [0/0%]: 30.00
POW [0/0%]: 13.00
SKL [0/0%]: 13.00
SPD [0/0%]: 10.00
DEF [0/0%]: 14.00
RES [0/0%]: 11.00
LCK [0/0%]: 9.00

Hermit = Lance Variant of Gladiator (Lord version of this thing is deadly in unpromo)
Oracle = Lance/Dark

Parivir = Sword/Anima
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Falaflame
post Nov 29 2013, 08:30 PM
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#1



QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ Nov 27 2013, 08:41 PM) *
Generals get critted to death by magic a lot

But they aren't always ORKO'd are they? I think a 70/35/14 survives a pursuit crit with 1 crit.
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