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Alternative Class System Proposal, Please Read and Expression Opinions
An Alternative Proposal - please read below
Which system, the other proposal or this one, do you think would work better and you would prefer?
The Other Proposal [ 1 ] ** [11.11%]
This Proposal [ 2 ] ** [22.22%]
I think this might work better, but I have concerns that will be expressed below [ 6 ] ** [66.67%]
Total Votes: 9
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Donny
post May 13 2012, 07:52 PM
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The reasoning behind this proposal is simple; rather than introduce a completely new system to Skylessia, this is a system that takes the idea of the original class layout and changes it for the better.

More options for classes are provided, including, melee and magical mixes upon reaching second tier, as well as the ability to have a mount and use just about any weapon while upon it. A Wyvern Rider could, potentially, use Ring magic, in the system.

The New Idea (Rough) Draft: Click Here To Show/Hide This Text


Note - Names with question marks next to them are subject to change, especially if a better name is suggested for that particular class.

First Tier Classes

Swords: Mercenary, Myrmidon, Thief
Lances: Soldier, Lancer
Axes: Fighter, Brigand
Bows: Archer
Anima: Mage
Light: Monk
Dark: Shaman
Staves: Cleric, Priest
Bardic: Dancer, Bard
Armor Knight: (lance/axe/sword)
Horse: Troubadour (staves/rings), MageKnight (anima/light/dark), Cavalier (axe/sword/lance/bow)
Flying: Wyvern Knight, Pegasus Knight (Any weapon type)
Manakete: Manakete

~

Second Tier Classes

MELEE

Swords: - Swordmaster (Mymridon/Mercenary)
Swords/Lances - Champion (Lancer/Mercenary)
Swords/Axes - Hero (Mercenary/Fighter)
Swords/Bows - Assassin (Thief/Archer/Mymridon)
Lances - Halberdier (Soldier/Lancer)
Lances/Axes - Champion (Soldier/Fighter)
Lances/Bows - Bahadur (Lancer/Archer)
Axes - Berserker (Fighter/Brigand)
Axes/Bows - Warrior (Fighter/Brigand/Archer)

Bows - Sniper (archer)
Armor - General (Knight, option to choose a second weapon type - swords/lances/axes)
Mounted (NonMagical) - Wyvern Lord (Wyvern Knight, choose second weapon type lances/Sword/Axes), Falcon Knight (Pegasus Knight, choose second weapon type Lances/Swords or Axes), Paladin (Cavalier, choose second weapon type - axes/swords/lances)

~

MAGIC

Anima - Elementalist (Mage)
Light - Cardinal? (Monk)
Dark - Necromancer (Shaman)

Anima/Dark - Sage (Mage/Shaman)
Anima/Light - Sage (Mage/Monk)
Dark/Light - Advent (Monk/Shaman)

Anima/Staves - Sorcerer? (Mage/Cleric/Priest)
Dark/Staves - Druid (Shaman/Cleric/Priest)
Light/Staves - Bishop (Monk/Cleric/Priest)

~

MIX
Valkyrie - (Troubladour, Pegasus Rider, Wyvern Knight, Mage Knight, Cavalier, choose new magic or weapon type, or two magic types - Anima/Dark/Light/Staves/Rings or Swords/Axes/Lances/Bows)
Performer - Ring users reaching second tier, picking up second weapon type, melee or magic
Magister? - People who pick up rings at second tier
Adept - uses Sword/Lance/Axe/Bow, picks up Anima/Dark/Light/Staves
Warlock - Uses Anima/Dark/Light/Staves, picks up Sword/Lance/Axe/Bow

~

MANAKETE

Become better Manaketes


It would be structured, yes, but also offer more options than what Skylessia currently supports. Also, to go along with this new and different system, we'd implement a skill list of sorts. Two examples of what skills would/could look like are in the spoiler below. Players would be able to pick one skill for their character at first tier, two skills at second tier, and perhaps three skills at third tier (we have yet to work our way so high up). We would also open the development of skills to player creation. Encourage it, even.

For the second tier, characters that stick with a single weapon type ("Weapon Mastery"), such as the Swordmaster or Sniper, can use both of their skills on skills from the skill list, while classes that pick up a second weapon type, such as the Hero or Sage, must use one of their skill points on acquiring the second weapon for that class.

Skill Examples: Click Here To Show/Hide This Text
____ Bane: The character is particularly skilled at hurting _____ (Demons, Fliers, Horses, Armors, a weapon type, etc.) - essentially, it'd be akin to automatically having a "Slayer" type on all of that character's weapons.

____ Guard: Works the same way as Bane, but in a defensive manner.


~

Example Character With System: Click Here To Show/Hide This Text

First Tier - Sword User - Mercenary
First Character Skill: Demon Bane - Having focused on fighting Demons all his life, this mercenary knows just where to strike, ect.
Mercenary reaches level 20, promotes to Hero. Uses a skill point to acquire the second weapon type, Axes, and uses other skill point to pick up Demon Guard - Same basic idea as the above, but having to do with defending himself.


~

Summoning
For those of you concerned about the lack of summoning expressed as its own weapon type (with own classes), the idea here would be that a mage (for example), starting at first level, would have access to both 'E rank' spells and summons, of the Anima type. They would work off of the same weapon skill rank.

~

Please vote and express yourselves below.
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Satori
post May 13 2012, 09:18 PM
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I disagree with summons being freely available from the start for magic classes. Very strongly, in fact. That essentially makes it so that they require no extra knowledge or skill beyond their base magical ability. Far as I remember summons were never supposed to work that way.

At the very least it should be an acquirable skill or weapon type, and I still don't like the idea of it being available before second tier.
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Aviv
post May 13 2012, 09:24 PM
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I definitely like this idea.

The only concerns that I would have with it is the bit about the mixing of melee and magic. The class system where a mix of the melee/magic trees could essentially result in a class whose abilities can be too excessive for a single character to have at the point of second tier classes. The only class I can see this being feasible for is the bardic classes, since that's how things are already.

Example I thought of to show my point:
PC engages a group of three bandits. PC is a paladin with lance/anima combination. PC uses Entangle to rope all three bandits in a straight line. PC then proceeds to run a mithril lance through all three bandits, killing them with little opposition in an instant.

The skills idea seems much more plausible and allow a much easier flow with a character's development, but I don't think summons should be accessible to 1st tier classes.
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Gazetteer
post May 13 2012, 09:54 PM
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So, I said the other one might be fun to play around with, and I still do. But that would involve kind of jolting the entire universe of the RP in a weird direction without a whole lot of reason to. In other words, something that is nominally meant to increase freedom or whatever could just end up being pretty intrusive.

This one... less so. It does make some kind of weird seeming class combinations, but it's at least trying to mimic the current one. First point of complaint is with some of the class names, and I've already expressed this to you over AIM. To reiterate in a more public space, any time you're taking a term associated with an existing class and using it to make a class that is not that existing class, you are making a mistake. For example, requiring paladins to use magic while at the same time calling paladins great knights is a mistake, because it's weird and unintuitive for people coming from the source material. Likewise, wyvern master is in the same boat. Its name also doesn't at all reflect the idea that magical ability is required to use it. Work better names out and clean it up, and you have a perfectly working system. Fine.

The skills I don't really care for at all. They're both unnecessary and actually quite restrictive, since they largely seem to cover things I could currently do on my own without having to arbitrarily spend a point on. Point systems on weapons are one thing -- a weapon is an inanimate object used for combat. But this kind of system should never limit what I can and cannot do with a character concept itself in the way that this does.

QUOTE
____ Bane: The character is particularly skilled at hurting _____ (Demons, Fliers, Horses, Armors, a weapon type, etc.) - essentially, it'd be akin to automatically having a "Slayer" type on all of that character's weapons.

____ Guard: Works the same way as Bane, but in a defensive manner.
When I see this, all I can think "well, if I currently wanted a character to be good at killing demons, I'd write her as being good at killing demons." With the other system, 'skills' were basically a vehicle to inflate the overall power level of lower tier classes. With this one, they seem to be an attempt to enable us to do the things we could already do perfectly well, only now we need to do it in strict limitation.

In short: This skill system is tacked on, unnecessary and actively works against what you're attempting to do. Scrap it.

I think I'd prefer this to the other one, as far as sudden systemic shifts go. The Lysander's thing might be cool in a new RP, but not really so much in one that's at the point in its lifespan that Sky is. This one is pretty much the lesser of two evils in that regard. If it were really up to me, I'd prefer we not change the class system at all, but it's not, so I'll just vote for this one.
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Viceman B.
post May 13 2012, 11:37 PM
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I voted 'This Proposal', but I shall express myself too. it seems I just like anything XD

I like how this is going as it appears to be more simple. I agree with text about some class name, and that there should be new classes for magic + melee, but this is a rough idea so I won't complain now. but you have two 'champion' there!

For summoning at first tier, I think it's alright if you make it as 'familiars' or something now so combat-oriented, for example allowing first tier summoners to use only E and D rank summon. Just an idea.
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Lysander
post May 14 2012, 01:57 AM
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I'd probably prefer my own, in a more general sense, but at the same time something like this obviously -could- work and is simpler. It just, to me, has a few glaring issues, most of which are easy to address.

As far as first tier is concerned, I am actually failing to see how it is much different than my own beyond using a notion of 'points' and apparently removing the chance at using an additional weapon at first tier. Or would that still be an option? Anyway, I'll address that later. At second tier this proposal seems to give two 'points' at once. Would you have to spend those 'points' right away? Or could it actually be -just- like my proposal where you can take that second 'point' whenever you want?

I assume you are still making early promotion not-a-thing? If so, I would suggest allowing for multiple weapons before second tier, as I mentioned above, since that was the big reason for promoting early. Even if you want to make it, for some reason, mean spending both your first tier 'point' and a second tier 'point', it probably needs to be there. Though, if you were to make it require such an investment...you would have to ensure any other use of first tier 'point' would -not- be as good or better than taking another weapon (hint: hard to do since it would usually be better since most skill-type things allow you to do one thing better whereas an extra weapon gives you very little in terms of IRP skill boost...and might actually make your weapon level in either weapon lower than similarly leveled characters). Basically, think on this a bit more and either allow for early promotion or consider allowing the crux of what early promotion was in some first tier form. Just don't do something silly like you wanted to do before and make it so you can "spend a point to take another weapon at first tier, but, oh yeah, that weapon can't go beyond E-rank until you promote. Sucker!"

Then I personally see no need for structuring a second tier class list like you have. First of all, almost nobody will come to a satisfactory agreement on the names for classes that aren't part of FE canon and, beyond that, they likely wouldn't stick so well since they are being placed into an old system. I guess you could use some of the FE: A classes for some of it, but there would still be gaps. Just begs the question: do you need to set up official names here? Or can you simply lay out the options in a more succinct manner? Before people said they wanted a class list still, but that was a class list of FE canon classes, which we already have! I do not think anybody is clamouring for a list of options including all the new weapon combinations allowed, etc. So my suggestion would be to do one of two things: 1) No list at all, just tell people what they can do at promotion 2) Provide a list of the standard stuff we already have, but don't attach secondary weapons to the stuff that can take one...instead extend the description and leave it to the RPer to pick a weapon. Highlight the standard class option if you want. [ex: Hero (Swords + Axe or Choose)]. I'd probably prefer that second option.

As for skills, yeah, I agree with text for the most part. What I was going for with skills was a way to increase options at first and second tier, bringing the classes more in line with what were actually in the games, across the various settings, while also allowing RPers to come up with their own character defining things. From what I can tell, you are still coming at this from a gameplay perspective where "you now have a buff where every weapon you have is +1 demonslaying". If you are going to have skills, I would rather it be something more character specific, rule-bending (that is, not something you would allow to everybody right now without question) and concrete.

Example Skill: Click Here To Show/Hide This Text
NAME OF SKILL: Demon Bane
Ulysses has spent the last year studying how different demons react to different sounds generated by a clever use of wind magic and various tubed instruments of his own design. Currently, he has discovered a wind/tube combo for stunning most, if not all, demons of a lesser class for as long as the sound plays. He hopes to further his research as he continues work in the field.
RANK OF SKILL: First Tier

Right now, wind magic can't really do anything like that without mod approval, as I understand it, since features like this were meant for staff/ring weapon users. As well, nobody but somebody like Ulysses (some made up character) would have this skill. That is, he has this skill because: 1) Uses wind magic and all that entails 2) Has an interest in music/demons/research 3) Has a hunch about the effects of sound on demons, likely due to some event in his profile or over the course of one of his threads or between-thread adventures. If there was a bardic spell that affected demons, maybe he heard that and began to wonder how sound in general might have an effect.

It is effectively the same as something like _____ Bane, but a bit different in that it's more specific and specifically allows for something a bit beyond "well, my character has been fighting demons for 'x' years so naturally...she's good at fighting demons". That sort of thing should not require a skill, unless the skill was something beyond the natural. Like, some supernatural feature that gave +1demonsalying with actual explanation attached, for why the character has that supernatural feature/what that supernatural feature is.


As I've told you over AIM, if you are going to start out with a list for a skill system, it should be a list of what you -won't- be approving in a more broad sense. Let people submit their specifics as they relate to their character and flesh out your 'not going to approve' list as you go. Beyond that, stress that people don't need to use the skill system for things that fall out naturally from a standard, already-allowed character description. A character who lived in the mountains near a pack of territorial wyverns might naturally have an edge if fighting wyverns, due to experience plain and simple. Something like that would not need a skill, etc. And even further, people don't need to force some extra thing onto their character if they don't see one existing. That is something I might have failed to point out for my system as well.

In summary: Consider allowing for pre-promotes again or at least allowing multiple weapons at first tier, figure out if people actually want a list of second tier classes like what you are making, and reconsider the skill system as you have it now.
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Tsubori
post May 14 2012, 09:32 AM
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Now, I'm not really going to drone on here, but I voted this one. My only major problem is with the skill system. I don't really see AT ALL what's with this sudden fascination in everyone tacking on skills for no reason. It's just going to add clutter and annoyance. 

This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't going to provide another problem that always arises. I mean no offense to the mods, but there will always be times every now and then where they're very slow in approving profiles and grading RPs and such. This just adds and extra that'll slow things down because now not only do you have to wait for gradings/profiles, but now you have to contact a mod and await approval for your created skill. Just a question, how often do you think this line will arise? "We'll start the RP in a bit, I have to wait to see if my character's new skill checks out."

That's why I think it's good. Just without the skills stuff. It's restrictive for if you DON'T have them, and it creates more problems that will ultimately lead to people getting annoyed.
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post May 14 2012, 10:14 AM
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QUOTE(Satori @ May 13 2012, 09:18 PM) *
I disagree with summons being freely available from the start for magic classes. Very strongly, in fact. That essentially makes it so that they require no extra knowledge or skill beyond their base magical ability. Far as I remember summons were never supposed to work that way.

At the very least it should be an acquirable skill or weapon type, and I still don't like the idea of it being available before second tier.


How do summons work then? Honest question, because far as I can tell they just sorta become a thing at second tier with no real explanation. To add, the idea with lower weapon rank summons is that they would indeed be very simple summons compared to what's currently available. (Though some of the current C rank summons, like wights, which are very weak, would likely rank down.)

The way summons are now you have nothing and then suddenly make a fairly big leap to advanced summons given you can do things like summon a functional zombie wyvern right from the get go. The progress of summon complexity tying in directly with the magic type they stem from makes a lot of sense in terms of development.

If you don't want to see them until second tier how would you handle their weapon ranks? If you wait for second tier you can't tie them to the weapon level of the school of magic they're attributed to; because some characters would be starting fresh with that weapon type and others would have been using it since the start.

QUOTE(Aviv @ May 13 2012, 09:24 PM) *
I definitely like this idea.

The only concerns that I would have with it is the bit about the mixing of melee and magic. The class system where a mix of the melee/magic trees could essentially result in a class whose abilities can be too excessive for a single character to have at the point of second tier classes. The only class I can see this being feasible for is the bardic classes, since that's how things are already.

Example I thought of to show my point:
PC engages a group of three bandits. PC is a paladin with lance/anima combination. PC uses Entangle to rope all three bandits in a straight line. PC then proceeds to run a mithril lance through all three bandits, killing them with little opposition in an instant.

The skills idea seems much more plausible and allow a much easier flow with a character's development, but I don't think summons should be accessible to 1st tier classes.


Your example is a very limited scenario. Keep in mind that enemies would adhere to this set up as much as PCs do, and if you're running a thread and limiting the scope of enemies involved to something imbalanced and uniform as say, a group of all melee physical users, then adding new class types doesn't change poor thread encounter design.

What if the enemy was a staff/axe user, could simply dispell themselves, and then slam a poleaxe into your paladin as they ride up?

QUOTE(Gazetteer @ May 13 2012, 09:54 PM) *
So, I said the other one might be fun to play around with, and I still do. But that would involve kind of jolting the entire universe of the RP in a weird direction without a whole lot of reason to. In other words, something that is nominally meant to increase freedom or whatever could just end up being pretty intrusive.

This one... less so. It does make some kind of weird seeming class combinations, but it's at least trying to mimic the current one. First point of complaint is with some of the class names. "..." Work better names out and clean it up, and you have a perfectly working system. Fine.


They were placeholders to begin with so that's not an issue.

QUOTE(Gazetteer @ May 13 2012, 09:54 PM) *
The skills I don't really care for at all. They're both unnecessary and actually quite restrictive, since they largely seem to cover things I could currently do on my own without having to arbitrarily spend a point on. Point systems on weapons are one thing -- a weapon is an inanimate object used for combat. But this kind of system should never limit what I can and cannot do with a character concept itself in the way that this does.

QUOTE
____ Bane: The character is particularly skilled at hurting _____ (Demons, Fliers, Horses, Armors, a weapon type, etc.) - essentially, it'd be akin to automatically having a "Slayer" type on all of that character's weapons.

____ Guard: Works the same way as Bane, but in a defensive manner.
When I see this, all I can think "well, if I currently wanted a character to be good at killing demons, I'd write her as being good at killing demons." With the other system, 'skills' were basically a vehicle to inflate the overall power level of lower tier classes. With this one, they seem to be an attempt to enable us to do the things we could already do perfectly well, only now we need to do it in strict limitation.

In short: This skill system is tacked on, unnecessary and actively works against what you're attempting to do. Scrap it.


It would be healthier to view the idea behind these skills as "upgrades" rather than "establishers". Its not that you can't have these aspects beforehand, but that they get a noticeable increase upon hitting second tier if chosen. However, as it stands, we're likely to remove the entire skills issue from the class system and treat it as a separate consideration after-the-fact, if at all.

QUOTE(Lysander @ May 14 2012, 01:57 AM) *
In summary: Consider allowing for pre-promotes again or at least allowing multiple weapons at first tier, figure out if people actually want a list of second tier classes like what you are making, and reconsider the skill system as you have it now.


The idea I had regarding that is thus;

First tier you can opt to start with two weapon types if you want, but they have to both be physical or magical in type. At second tier you can have a -maximum- of 3 weapon types, and they can be any mix of physical or magical in type. This keeps the type mixing to be done further along during a character's progression but still allow for any combination of types a player might want come second tier. If it turns out the concerns against level 1 physical/magical mixing are held by only a scant few people, then just plain starting with any two types should be fine.

QUOTE(Tsubori @ May 14 2012, 09:32 AM) *
Now, I'm not really going to drone on here, but I voted this one. My only major problem is with the skill system. I don't really see AT ALL what's with this sudden fascination in everyone tacking on skills for no reason. It's just going to add clutter and annoyance. 

This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't going to provide another problem that always arises. I mean no offense to the mods, but there will always be times every now and then where they're very slow in approving profiles and grading RPs and such. This just adds and extra that'll slow things down because now not only do you have to wait for gradings/profiles, but now you have to contact a mod and await approval for your created skill. Just a question, how often do you think this line will arise? "We'll start the RP in a bit, I have to wait to see if my character's new skill checks out."

That's why I think it's good. Just without the skills stuff. It's restrictive for if you DON'T have them, and it creates more problems that will ultimately lead to people getting annoyed.


With the current version of the proposal skills are not customizable options for characters beyond 3rd tier, so this issue has already been worked around. But again as I said with Text, at this point we can just throw the idea of "skills" out. The number of weapon types you give your character to be treated purely as a preference and if you choose to have less, then you simply have less.
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Echelon
post May 14 2012, 11:29 AM
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This is a bit late since I already had it typed before the internet started working and I could read the last few posts, but oh well, maybe there'll be something useful here regardless.

I agree with Text and Ly for the most part. This is much simpler than the other system and allows for more variety without changing -everything-. I do like the idea of skills, stll - but the examples listed are pretty poor, for the reasons that have already been said. Skills should be things that break physics a bit or aren't allowed in the weapon system as it stands - a (very) limited flash step at first tier, for instance, to reuse an example.

I'll use Ronan and Emil to show what I mean.

QUOTE
Ronan Marhone (Bard -> Bardic)
First tier ability: Echo - Ronan's single-target songs can affect two targets at once at somewhat reduced effectiveness.

(Performer -> Bardic, Anima)
Second tier ability: Resonance - Ronan can affect up to five (or more, if allowed) targets at once - but the more he tries to enmesh in one spell, the harder it is for him to concentrate on anything other than his magic and the weaker the effect gets.

Which begs the question: Do first tier abilities get upgraded at second tier for free, or does the improvement take a second tier skill slot? I'd assume the first, in which case Echo would upgrade to Resonance and he'd get something else instead.

QUOTE
Emil Rainahd (Shaman -> Dark)
First tier ability: Barrier - Emil has an unusual talent for magical shields, able to bring them up quickly and with less effort and more power than spells like Repulse normally take.

(Druid -> Dark, Staves)
Second tier ability: Warding - Emil can set protective spells on his allies even from a distance, calling up shields to deflect or absorb attacks, depending on how much power he can spare to put into it.

I'd imagine third tier would be a logical extension of this, Wardmage, able to fully manipulate and use those barriers for offense as well as defense. Obviously this sort of thing isn't accounted for in the current weapon system aside from one basic spell per magic type, so this is the sort of thing skills ought to cover. Not "Hey, I'm -really good- at hunting demons!", which is backstory material.

Summon stuff
E: Scratch all that, I'm fine with it as a first tier option.



To respond to skills being dropped: Well, if the stuff I mentioned already can be done without them just by stating "Well, that's the character" without being called for godmodding or something, then great. But the skill system seems like the best way to control exactly that.
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post May 20 2012, 05:26 PM
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I honestly seems like every time I disappear, no matter how long, something happens to the "Sky" system...

My big thing is I rarely ever see the need to change the system. Stagnation might be a reason to change a setting, but not the system, in my mind. But, if I was forced to play one of the two systems being polled, it would be this one.

My few issues are quite possibly a little arbitrary, but I shall express them anyway.

1) Rogues. I know "Assassin" is a general term that could be anything, but the thief lacks the "uniquely thief" second tier.

2) Summoners their own base class. I, personally, love summoners. And making summoning it's own magic type, with it's own weapon levels would make a new option with a couple new second tier options, which creates more unique characters.

3) Not a big fan of skills. I don't think they're necessary or helpful, especially if (like has been mentioned) you have a wait for individual skills to be approved. I know I lose my focus here easy enough, I don't need something else to distract everyone from starting an RP or posting in one... that being said, I would use them if they were implemented, but it might get very out of hand very quickly. I know who I am, and I toe the line... >_>

4) Forcing second tiers to spend one of their second tier points on a weapon they should get naturally at second tier seems unfair. It makes going into 'Hero' effectively the same as being a 'Swordmaster' but without the extra skill point; if the skill point expenditure is optional, then they are literally no different.

I don't even know how open this still is, but I just got a strong urge to come back yesterday and read all this. Then I let it stew for a day or so, and I came to post this. Sorry if I'm a little late.
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Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 18th February 2020 - 10:23 PM

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