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Bows a bit too strong?
Bows
What should be done?
Nothing. They're fine and balanced. [ 14 ] ** [43.75%]
-1 MT to all bows [ 8 ] ** [25.00%]
-1 MT to all bows and something else (e.g. flier effectiveness reduced) [ 4 ] ** [12.50%]
Some nerf that doesn't harm their MT [ 6 ] ** [18.75%]
Total Votes: 32
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Misha
post Oct 10 2009, 05:58 PM
Post #1

Minty Idolm@ster
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Check this shit out
As time goes on, more and more people are finding bow users indispensable.

In the last promoted tournament of 16 players, there were
1 player with 3 bow users
7 players with 2 bow users
8 players with 1 bow user
and 0 players with no bow users.

Not a single player neglected to bring at least one bow user, and half of the tournament brought multiple.

In the last unrpomoted tournament of 16 players, there were
1 player with 3 bow users
9 players with 2 bow users (that's 1/3 of their entire team, and in some cases, all of their physical attackers)
3 players with 1 bow user
and 3 players with 0 bow users

Again, very few people declined the option of bringing multiple bow users, even in a format where you only have six units, and none of the bow users have the option of multiple weapon classes.

Maybe not the ultimate physical attacker, but a staple. They kill the very small niche peg mages have (worse avoid tanks than hawks at the cost of 5 more stat points), by getting a +10% accuracy bonus on them. They've got sniper + longbow for hit/runs, they've even got siege, crappy as it is.

Perhaps reducing the MT of bows to equal swords is in order.
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§ Hitsugaya §
post Oct 10 2009, 08:28 PM
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Grand Master
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People just love bow users... fan boys go go go (IMG:style_emoticons/blue/grin.gif) ...
Yeah bow's are good, not only because they are the at the strength / accuracy of lances.
But they ignore the weapon triangle.

Besides how many people bring stave units?

I want bow's to stay the way they are.
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Misha
post Oct 10 2009, 10:38 PM
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Minty Idolm@ster
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Staff units far outnumber bows, but that's because they're a class of their own. Healing is necessary, status prevention is necessary. Status is nice, but not spammed as much in tournaments as it used to be, even with it's overaccurate formula.

We can't blame fanboyism for bow popularity, as bow users in canon FE games suck. Snipers get 100% accuracy as their special ability... in two RN games on units that have inherently high SKL and LCK?
If we could blame fanboyism for anything, it'd be sword popularity, yet there's an abundance of people who don't bother bringing them at all in unpromoted, and the only reason they see use in promoted is because of their superior crit rate (go ahead, count the nomad troopers, paladins, agents, and peregrine knights, as compared to swordmasters. I'll wait).

Bows serve too many purposes to be left alone.
+10 accuracy vs the avoid tank hawks, making the already lulzy concept of "avoid tank" even lulzier.
1.5x effectiveness against anything with wings, resulting in being the only store bought weapon that can ohko a wide selection of units.
Ignores weapon triangle. Sure, you don't get WTA, but you never need to worry about WTD either.
Inherent 2 range makes attacking 3/7 weapon types in the game a breeze, worrying only about toy counters on the first strike, while you have full power attacks.
Killer weapon at 2 range makes H/R'ing easier.
Longbow.
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kryptonite
post Oct 11 2009, 12:20 AM
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I agree that they're good, but...

Devil's Advocate:
- Other melee weapons also get anti-Horse/Armor units, while Bows don't. The armor one may be key since they can do nothing against a high Def knight with Counter...
- Magics are still better since they can attack from 1-2 range at full power...
- Fliers outrange or have the same range (other than Longbows, but no one is sending a Nomad out solo with a Longbow to OHO something)
- Like how They attack facing at most toy melee counter, the reserve is the same...

Do you want them to use their flier effectiveness? The hit bonus? (good luck dealing with 105 Avd Hawk lords with 30 Pow >_>)
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Misha
post Oct 11 2009, 12:30 AM
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- Magic may be better than physical (which I don't believe, by the way. why are people still making physical units if that's the case? Critmasters trump Thoron, and Brave Lance outdamages anything magic), but bow is better than axe. That's the argument I'm making here.

- Yes. axe gets horseslayer, hammer, and reaver... but you don't see a whole lot of axe users in comparison to bow users, do you?

I don't want them to lose their accuracy bonus. I want them to get a 1MT penalty, which would put them on par with swords, since they fill a niche that the others can't hope to compare to.

Sword: -1 MT because they're amazing critical makers. (See; the amount of swordmasters)
Lance: +0 MT because it's vanilla.
Axe: +1 MT because they're WTA'd by the amazing critical makers, and because they themselves have horrible crit rate.
Bow: -1 MT, for reasons previously stated. (Longbow H/R, Killer bow H/R, Flier killing capacity)

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Axel Almer
post Oct 11 2009, 04:22 AM
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NO SWORD NERF!

+3 crit does not warrant -1 mt, let's stop thinking about nerfing the weakest weapon by making it more weaker because it has more luck factor to deal 2.25x damage by a meager 3%. MT is always greater than 3% crit and buffing axes more is BS. In fact, i'd argue swords should get more +crit% like they were originally drafted to be. (IMG:style_emoticons/blue/pissed.gif)

Let me add that the quantity of swordmasters is nothing but mere fanboygasm, you yourself have stated that and then comment that not many use it in favour of bows then switch to warranting swords a -1 mt because 'they're amazing critical makers'. Nonsensical, contradictory Bullshit.

Snipers are better than any amazing critical makers, +1 mt means more crit damage, most versatile weapons and the only drawback is weakness to armours, -3 crit% loss is no problem for them. Also, said critmasters use wrath+high crit weapons and at certain situations sharp weapons.

STOP WHINING
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One Man Wolfpack
post Oct 11 2009, 09:56 AM
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QUOTE(00 QUANTA @ Oct 11 2009, 05:22 AM) *
NO SWORD NERF!

+3 crit does not warrant -1 mt, let's stop thinking about nerfing the weakest weapon by making it more weaker because it has more luck factor to deal 2.25x damage by a meager 3%. MT is always greater than 3% crit and buffing axes more is BS. In fact, i'd argue swords should get more +crit% like they were originally drafted to be. (IMG:style_emoticons/blue/pissed.gif)

Let me add that the quantity of swordmasters is nothing but mere fanboygasm, you yourself have stated that and then comment that not many use it in favour of bows then switch to warranting swords a -1 mt because 'they're amazing critical makers'. Nonsensical, contradictory Bullshit.

Snipers are better than any amazing critical makers, +1 mt means more crit damage, most versatile weapons and the only drawback is weakness to armours, -3 crit% loss is no problem for them. Also, said critmasters use wrath+high crit weapons and at certain situations sharp weapons.

STOP WHINING



Umm she doesn't want to nerf swords >___>. She is asking to lower might of bows by one calm down.
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Misha
post Oct 11 2009, 11:26 AM
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I see Shaq's back.

I don't want to lower the mt of swords. I'm saying they have -1 mt when compared to lances.
Axes have +1 mt when compared to lances.

I want bows to have -1 mt when compared to lances.

Anyone else see the irony in size 7 bold "stop whining" in a post that's comprised entirely of whining?
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kryptonite
post Oct 11 2009, 12:16 PM
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QUOTE(Mystia Lorelei @ Oct 11 2009, 01:30 AM) *
- Magic may be better than physical (which I don't believe, by the way. why are people still making physical units if that's the case? Critmasters trump Thoron, and Brave Lance outdamages anything magic), but bow is better than axe. That's the argument I'm making here.

- Yes. axe gets horseslayer, hammer, and reaver... but you don't see a whole lot of axe users in comparison to bow users, do you?

I don't want them to lose their accuracy bonus. I want them to get a 1MT penalty, which would put them on par with swords, since they fill a niche that the others can't hope to compare to.

Sword: -1 MT because they're amazing critical makers. (See; the amount of swordmasters)
Lance: +0 MT because it's vanilla.
Axe: +1 MT because they're WTA'd by the amazing critical makers, and because they themselves have horrible crit rate.
Bow: -1 MT, for reasons previously stated. (Longbow H/R, Killer bow H/R, Flier killing capacity)

- I think there are a lot of physical units because they do more damage to glassy mages than the mages do, they have a non-fail mounted unpromoted, and they also have better stats (maybe to compensate for their inferior weapons)... But I dunno...

- This isn't exactly what I meant- There are more sword/axe/lance users than bow users, right? Like staves, bows kind of fill a different niche than "melee weapon" and "magic"... You kind of said that yourself... You can live without a sword user if you have the other two, but you need a bow user for a good 2 range weapon...

- I disagree that they need a nerf... What about this? On the enemy turn, they are attacked at 1 range by presumably more than 1 person for full damage at 1 range. Unless they brought multiple archers or something... >_>

QUOTE
Inherent 2 range makes attacking 3/7 weapon types in the game a breeze, worrying only about toy counters on the first strike, while you have full power attacks.

Since most people have toys equipped on their turn, you can say the same about melee weapons... They get WTA on one, and bows and the weapon they are holding are neutral... and all toys. >_>
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Lysander
post Oct 11 2009, 12:27 PM
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This is ridiculous. People are also bringing multiple mages because one mage doesn't do the job against high defense units. Maybe we should nerf them too?

Objectively, bows have just as many cons as other weapons. So, why are people bringing more than 1? Well, it's likely because of fliers perceived as a threat. Are fliers overly threatening? So, is the problem with the bow or with the fliers? Because, nerfing the bow would just make it even more niche and useful on only fliers. Do fliers need to be re-examined and then buffed or nerfed based on the examination?
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VivaciousCake
post Oct 11 2009, 01:37 PM
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I agree with ^

People have tons of mages, should they be nerfed because of that too?

"Because, nerfing the bow would just make it even more niche and useful on only fliers."

Fact.

Sometimes Archers don't even do that much damage against defensive Wyvern's (which are plenty) already.
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Stalker Sasqatch
post Oct 11 2009, 01:43 PM
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QUOTE(Lysander @ Oct 11 2009, 12:27 PM) *
This is ridiculous. People are also bringing multiple mages because one mage doesn't do the job against high defense units. Maybe we should nerf them too?

Objectively, bows have just as many cons as other weapons. So, why are people bringing more than 1? Well, it's likely because of fliers perceived as a threat. Are fliers overly threatening? So, is the problem with the bow or with the fliers? Because, nerfing the bow would just make it even more niche and useful on only fliers. Do fliers need to be re-examined and then buffed or nerfed based on the examination?

People bring multiple mages because they hit RES instead of DEF, which is much lower on average. They also have 1-2 range with all of their weapons. They also have status tomes/staves, which are highly useful depending on your weapon type. The fact that they destroy high DEF units is a plus. People bring multiple archers because they have full power 2 range attacks, an unbuyable weapon that is far superior to the horseslayer and armourslayer combined, killer and brave bows from 2 range, and a permanent slayer bonus vs. flyers. The fact that they out perform their physical counterparts is the reason why people use them more often.


Fliers are NOT overly threatening. In unpromoted you have the wyvern fighter and rider, admittedly 2 of the better classes in unpromoted. Too bad you need 40 HP and 20 defense (which isn't going to happen on a generic without being 1 rounded by a pursuit mage) to avoid 2hko by mithril bow. Did I mention that magic can always 2hko them? You also have the pegasus archer and knight. Pegasus knights are utterly terrible due to their low power/low defense/higher luck and weapon typing. WTD vs. axes and bows can still always 2hko them. Pegasus archers have their uses, but again, bows shoot them down with ease. Then we have pegasus mages. They have extremely low defense and HP, so low that they have to invest in those stats to avoid being killed in one hit. Their high evade might warrant an archer, but a reliable bronze from any unit can hit them pretty... reliably >>;
Promoted is a different game, and I'm not very qualified to talk about it anymore, so I'll leave that to someone else. More later if I feel up to it >>;
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Beemo
post Oct 11 2009, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE(Rafael @ Oct 11 2009, 11:37 AM) *
People have tons of mages, should they be nerfed because of that too?

"Because, nerfing the bow would just make it even more niche and useful on only fliers."

Fact.

Sometimes Archers don't even do that much damage against defensive Wyvern's (which are plenty) already.

I couldn't disagree more.  Mages are the magical equivalent of physicals.  Obvious, right?  This argument doesn't parallel to the bow users argument whatsoever.  Bow users are specific to one weapon type, they are already very niche units, and they don't have a weapon triangle like mages.


That being said, nerfing the bow would most certainly NOT make it only useful on fliers.  Swords have a lower MT as it is, but people still use them.  And quite effectively, might I add.  Finally, have you ever used a Mithril Bow on a Wyvern?  I don't care if it maxed out DEF, it's still taking a significant hit, and that max DEF means its RES is more than likely leaving something to be desired, so it's dead anyway.

EDIT: p.s. Way to go Shaq. Nice entrance. Couldn't be more proud of your apparent literacy rate and level of common sense.
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Lysander
post Oct 11 2009, 02:12 PM
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While people do effectively use swords with the -1 might, swords and bows are hardly the same. For one thing, bows are fairly useless during your opponents phase, making them easy targets. With swords you can at least use your high crit/avoid to scare opponents away from attacking/hurt them during their own attack, but with bows...not so much. Then, yeah, they are really strong against fliers but is that a problem with the bow's might rating or a problem with something else?

People bring them to kill fliers, right? Well, then the fliers or something to with the bow vs. flier formula needs tweaking, not the might rating of the bow.
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Stalker Sasqatch
post Oct 11 2009, 02:23 PM
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QUOTE(Lysander @ Oct 11 2009, 02:12 PM) *
While people do effectively use swords with the -1 might, swords and bows are hardly the same. For one thing, bows are fairly useless during your opponents phase, making them easy targets. With swords you can at least use your high crit/avoid to scare opponents away from attacking/hurt them during their own attack, but with bows...not so much. Then, yeah, they are really strong against fliers but is that a problem with the bow's might rating or a problem with something else?

People bring them to kill fliers, right? Well, then the fliers or something to with the bow vs. flier formula needs tweaking, not the might rating of the bow.

Swords and bows are equally "useless" on your opponent's phase, due to the fact that you have to have a 1-2 range weapon equipped to get a counter in. Swords "high crit" is barely higher than bows. Also, high crit on your counter attack isn't so high, due to the -15 critical penalty you get on the counter. Sword users have the same avoid as bow users. Actually play the game before you debate about a change please.

And no. Just like mages have the added bonus of killing high def units, bow users have the added bonus of a permanent slayer bonus vs. fliers.
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