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Why I think 5/5/5 kinda sucks in general, Kinda numberwall'd
Geoffrey Barbara Butl...
post Aug 4 2013, 10:41 PM
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So, I've always been generally unimpressed with 5/5/5 units as compared to critmasters (not the mages, ofc, since they have no competition), but now I'm gonna try to use FACTS and MATHS to back up my points. Disclaimer: this argument is going to focus on generic units because lord units can all be made to be good.

1) Swordsmasters and Trueblade generics basically have 4 basic builds (kinda only 3 for trueblades) that are most effective for those types of units (with slight variations based on what you want to get out of the unit). If you disagree with this opinion, feel free to try and convince me otherwise.

These builds are (at their most offensively potent) as follows.
- 30 pow/30 skl/30 spd/21 lck
- 30 pow/22 skl/30 spd/29 lck (Trueblade gets 30/23/30/28)
- 30 pow/30 skl/21 spd/28 lck (This unit has +4 hp as compared to the others)
- 30 pow/27 skl/27 spd/27 lck

2) The trueblade is only a viable alternative to the first, second, and fourth iterations of these units, as the 3rd is obviously far better left as a swordsmaster due to the complete lack of focus on avoid in this build. Therefore I will only compare the important 3 versions of the build.

3) OHMYGODLOOKATALLTHESENUMBERSANDWORDS

Build 1:
Swordsmaster Trueblade
Base Hit: 71 Base Hit: 76
Base Crit: 35 Base Crit: 25
Base Avd: 81 Base Avd: 86

Wrathable? No
Insightable? Yes

Winner? Swordsmaster, imo. Pursuit crits are much more possible with that +10 crit bonus and the avoid difference doesn't matter a whole lot due to the fact that both die to 2 sneezes.

Build 2:
Swordsmaster Trueblade
Base Hit: 67 Base Hit: 72.5
Base Crit: 31 Base Crit: 21.5
Base Avd: 89 Base Avd: 93

Wrathable? Yes
Insightable? 33+ lck troubs on SM, 32+ lck troubs on TB

Winner? Swordsmaster, imo. This one is a somewhat closer competition than the other one. However, due to the circumstance of the promotion stats being different, 29 lck is also a better number to hit than 28 lck. In addition, the lower crit numbers all around make the +10 in crit a bigger deal.
Example: Click Here To Show/Hide This Text
A unit with 80% crit is more or less the same as a unit with 90% crit as it's only a 12.5% increase in efficiency. However, a unit with a 10% crit rate is half as likely to crit as a unit with 20% crit, or a doubling in efficiency. I realize the difference is only 4% between this build and the last, but this unit will never be using wrath, which makes quite a bit of difference.


Build 4:
Swordsmaster Trueblade
Base Hit: 72.5 Base Hit: 77.5
Base Crit: 33.5 Base Crit: 23.5
Base Avd: 81 Base Avd: 86

Wrathable? No
Insightable? Only by troubs

Winner? Read build 1

tl;dr, Crit is the hardest stat to build for, and as such, +15 crit=/=+5/5/5. The avoid bonus becomes better as the units become more survivable, but there aren't enough stats to go around with generics, and the hit bonus is usually overshadowed by +10 crit. I propose removing the crit bonus from 5/5/5 physical classes and giving them something like 10 hit/10 avoid, since those are the biggest differences between both classes anyway. Mages can go to 7/7/7 (Since I feel they need a very slight buff or something, AND they don't have a critmaster to compete with.
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Nohrian Lord S-IX
post Aug 5 2013, 06:42 PM
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I'm liking the idea of the 5/5/5s -> 7/7/7s, even the 10/10 hit/avd seems nice and could allow for more variety in builds.
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Falaflame
post Aug 5 2013, 07:28 PM
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I dont mind if there's 7/7/7 mages. They kinda need the buff, and they dont have critmaster mages to compete with.

On that subject, Maelstrom/Thoron/Radiance should all have their WT down to the WT of Killer Weapons. 3wt is just killing them.

I dont mind 10/0/10 for physicals instead of 5/5/5 because I never really cared for 5/5/5 to begin with.
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LeaderR Elliot
post Aug 5 2013, 10:16 PM
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QUOTE(Falaflame @ Aug 5 2013, 08:28 PM) *
I dont mind if there's 7/7/7 mages. They kinda need the buff, and they dont have critmaster mages to compete with.

On that subject, Maelstrom/Thoron/Radiance should all have their WT down to the WT of Killer Weapons. 3wt is just killing them.

I dont mind 10/0/10 for physicals instead of 5/5/5 because I never really cared for 5/5/5 to begin with.



I want to lower the WT of S rank toys because same reasoning... it just kills them
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TBE
post Aug 5 2013, 11:40 PM
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Make a class that lowers weapon wt by !, to replace 5/5/5
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Falaflame
post Aug 6 2013, 04:28 AM
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QUOTE(7 @ Aug 6 2013, 12:40 AM) *
Make a class that lowers weapon wt by !, to replace 5/5/5

2wt longbows sounds like it could be abused like all hell
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TBE
post Aug 6 2013, 04:47 AM
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It would be very interesting, and different
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kaishin no chikara
post Aug 6 2013, 12:00 PM
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2wt longbows are less deadly than longbows without crit penalties. >_>

Edit: Back on topic: I would actually take the trueblade in every one of those matchups. I still think they need 7/7/7 though.
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Falaflame
post Aug 12 2013, 02:45 AM
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QUOTE(kaishin no chikara @ Aug 6 2013, 01:00 PM) *
2wt longbows are less deadly than longbows without crit penalties. >_>

Edit: Back on topic: I would actually take the trueblade in every one of those matchups. I still think they need 7/7/7 though.

Longbows didn't have a crit penalty?
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