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kaishin no chikara
If it's bolded it's been updated.

After playing some more FETO, I thought of some better ideas. Some more reasonable ideas, if you will.

Starting from least craziest to most craziest.

1. Traditional S-ranks (the ones used for their sheer power and hit) should get a hit penalty. They have +10 more hit than the A-rank power tomes and additional might. The only drawback is that they can't be gotten as easily, which is a terrible way to balance them. I was thinking -5 Hit.
Edit: Shot down from unpopularity.

2. Siege tomes shouldn't be affected by WTA, pitching or catching. It only adds a crazy amount of luck to the game regarding the tomes themselves, because predicting the magic types the opponent will use really isn't an option. >_>
"Oh gasp, I can't siege my opponents because they have WTA on me", or "gasp, I can easily siege my opponents because I get WTA2"

3. Give SKL the 2 Hit back, or give it 1.75 Hit per point. Currently, the only units that benefit from choosing skill over luck are those that cannot get 27+ luck (promoted and unpromoted armours) and hit and run units. Snipers, basically. This doesn't allow snipers any more hit and run potential (after all, if you bomb a hit and run you can just hit the abort button and run for it) and armours are obviously not going to become overpowered from this.

4. Bows are OP. Something should be done. Many have suggested a 1 MT penalty.

My favorite solution to this, however, is to take the Yggdra Union solution and give swords, axes, and lance WTA over these units. This makes melee units a lot less underpowered when compared to the uber bows and consequently makes armours much better choices. There is a reason there are no bowtroubs, after all (actually there are several reasons, but I won't be getting into the programming related ones).

Additionally, brave bows should not have effectiveness against fliers. This allows for stupidly high damage. >_>

5. Bring back the 5 hit difference between swords, lances, and axes, if for no other reason than to make anima and lances less underpowered when compared to axes' and darkness' brokenness. The crit difference should stay.

6. This is by far the most crazy idea, so bear with me.

Pegmages are significantly underpowered. The main idea behind peg mages is that they get two hits (albeit at 25 POW and 75% damage instead of 30) to everybody's one, and they get this on every unit that isn't another peg mage, even getting it on normal pursuiters. This gives them more damage overall. However,
1. Peg Mages can't really put a dent in things with anything less than a S-rank or an A-rank. Swapping to a lower rank doesn't help them too much with high evasion low resistance units.
2. Their pursuit ability often fails without MTA, because those units have low hit rates from low skill and lack of insight from pursuiting.
3. Pursuiting means that these units take a counterattack, meaning that the first shot has to be a killing blow or these units have to be the ones to strike first (as apposed to striking second for the kill, as most kills take 2 units).
4. Their one defense, incredible evasion, does not save them from bows.
5. Reliable Silver Impale OHKOs 95% of these units without fail. This isn't like the rienfleche case where hawks and peg mages can put a few more points in DEF. This is almost impossible to defend against. Using 0wt weapons doesn't help. But god forbid you don't equip them. Then you get Rienfleche impaled, and that is no fun with max power.

http://feto.feplanet.net/character/view/67998
Tef gave his lord a max evasion and hit build and even he can't stand against this. The impale does exactly 50 damage, enough to kill the lord.

The only defense against this is to use nihil, which is stupid for a peg mage to use.

I have two solutions to this, one of which is crazy awesome and the other of which is not so awesome but much more balanced. Balanced one comes first.

A. 26 power. This negates Reliable Silver Impale OHKO, an attack that is made to specifically take down these units. This doesn't solve the problem of allowing these units to equip non-0 WT weapons.

B. Give peg mages 2 magic types before promotion, extending it to three afterwards (heaven knights still have just staves, but receive two magic types post promotion). This gives all of them (including heaven knight promos) MTA3, which combined with decent RES, allows them to be anti-mage units. They still have hit problems on non-mage units and they still get that impale reliable silver OHKO bullshit, but now they can better do their job of being a total glass cannon unit.

C. Give these units 30 POW. This would fix the entire problem and despite what some may think would not make pegs broken, because they still suffer from low hit and now have to use 5/12.5% more to get max power, which definitely takes away from other stats that they have to invest in normally just to not get OKHO'd by other things.

Edit: Some other changes:

7. Status staves. The current census is that they are ridiculously broken. Sleep incapacitates a unit for 3 turns and forces the opponent to sacrifice another unit's turn, something that is especially important on a counterattack, to remedy the original unit. Silence and Seal are also restrict a unit's movement to variable degrees.

The worst offender I've seen is that time when Axl (not to be confused with Axel) rushed Inan, killed nothing, and sleeped some of his units. Inan counterattacked by killing 2 units. Even with this sort of counterattack, Axl still won (by sleeping more units).

Lastly, take a unit with 25 DEF, 25 RES, and 16 LCK. A standard Berlin Wall Druid. This unit has one of the highest defenses against staves at a potent 116.
Now take a standard staver. 30 POW and 17 SKL. Again, a standard Berlin Wall Druid. It's base hit is 167. Now add the S-rank bonus and sleep's normal hit and it rises to 182. Add in some range and it drops to 174. That's still a 58% chance of hitting... on a unit specifically built to block this kind of attack. The only unit with a higher defense is a RES-tank unit (see: Valiants, other Druids). Against another staving unit like a valkyrie, the chance increases to around 90%, and that's at unfavorable range for the staving unit.

With a unit like my Mage Knight Lord and Dracolord, or perhaps an actual Dracolord, the percentage rises to nearly 100%. Bear in mind that that was with a Berlin Wall Druid. Swap that out for a 30/30/30 bishop and it rises even more. This is fucking stupid. >_>

There are several courses of action we can take with this:

A. Give all units with staves immunity to staves. This would, to some degree, balance it out.
B. Give all staves the effect of remedy, so a remedying unit doesn't waste it's turn. As an example, this would mean that someone could Shield and Remedy a unit at the same.
C. Make all status staves 1 range. This wouldn't change much. >_>
D. Decrease the accuracy of status. Again, wouldn't change much. You'd just see people taking pot shots with status like it was fucking Call of Duty.
E. Make all status one turn. A more effective solution.
F. Make all status wear off after the caster's turn, not the enemy's. Can be combined with Option E for extra effect.
G. Ban Silence and Sleep, make Seal S-rank. This could be combined with Option C, Option E or Option F.
H. Remove Sleep, Seal, Silence from the game. From here, we can also do one of the following with Fear (Fear is not as broken, as it neither restricts an enemy's movement or its actions):
i. Ban Fear
ii. Nerf Fear (a -3 stat penalty instead of -5?)
iii. LEAVE FEAR ALONE! SHE'S A HUMAN!


Edit: Some ideas nixed in favor of changing staves instead of removing them. Too many players won't back me on simple stave removal. Also, see the other topic I made for a more detailed discussion and solution to status stave changing.

8. Give all physical flying units that don't have +15 evasion as a class skill the ability to get 35 SPD.

The thing about the +15 evasion is that you don't have to invest in other stats to get killer evasion and it only costs the sacrifice of a weapon type. This is somewhat bad for the melee units but even then isn't really noticeable for anything but hitting troubs and other hawk (or dracos, but they take little damage either way), which even with WTA2 instead of WTD is usually still impossible with their ridiculous evasion. Hawks definitely don't notice this because they're immune to the weapon triangle. And of course you can always overcome.

Giving the units that don't have this bonus a 35 SPD cap allows them to get 2/3rds of the bonus and have pursuit on a whole plethora of enemies, but at the same time doesn't make hawks/dracos obsolete because hawks/dracos still have the advantage of not having to invest in 5 points of extra speed to get the bonus. It's just given to them (remember, 35 SPD cap =/- 35 SPD).


More coming soon possibly.
kryptonite
I feel that the silver impale is directed at my 30 Pow Impalemads.

Easily remedied by not "optimizing" to 44/11, and instead 44/12. Oh noes, 1 more stat used for HP/Def. noes.gif
kaishin no chikara
QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ Sep 13 2012, 10:01 PM) *
I feel that the silver impale is directed at my 30 Pow Impalemads.

Easily remedied by not "optimizing" to 44/11, and instead 44/12. Oh noes, 1 more stat used for HP/Def. noes.gif


Not quite, you need 44/13 or 46/12. Either way, it's more than what's needed to optimize to avoid rien. It ditracts from points better spent elsewhere and it still doesn't allow the unit use of 1 wt weapons (impale rienfleche cannot be optimized against).
kryptonite
Because

Heaven Kn. -> Star Kn. [Gladiator]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/0%]: 44.00
POW [1/10%]: 25.00
SKL [0/0%]: 14.00
SPD [1/20%]: 35.00
DEF [2/0%]: 13.00
RES [0/0%]: 22.00
LCK [0/10%]: 28.00

Heaven Kn. -> Dawn Kn. [Gladiator]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/0%]: 44.00
POW [1/10%]: 25.00
SKL [0/0%]: 14.00
SPD [0/20%]: 35.00
DEF [2/0%]: 13.00
RES [0/0%]: 21.00
LCK [1/10%]: 29.00

Heaven Kn. -> Skyfire Kn. [Glass Cannon]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/15%]: 52.00
POW [1/10%]: 25.00
SKL [0/0%]: 19.00
SPD [1/10%]: 35.00
DEF [0/0%]: 7.00
RES [0/0%]: 21.00
LCK [2/5%]: 26.00

Heaven Kn. -> Skyfire Kn. [Glass Cannon]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/15%]: 52.00
POW [1/10%]: 25.00
SKL [2/20%]: 29.00
SPD [1/10%]: 35.00
DEF [0/0%]: 7.00
RES [0/0%]: 21.00
LCK [2/15%]: 30.00

are terrible units and should never be used, mirite?

Also, I can't think of anyone other than me that runs Impale except the occaisional Valiant (who would rather use Aurora) or Sniper (who would rather use Wrath/Pursuit/Insight).
kaishin no chikara
QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ Sep 14 2012, 12:33 PM) *
Because

Heaven Kn. -> Star Kn. [Gladiator]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/0%]: 44.00
POW [1/10%]: 25.00
SKL [0/0%]: 14.00
SPD [1/20%]: 35.00
DEF [2/0%]: 13.00
RES [0/0%]: 22.00
LCK [0/10%]: 28.00


This unit has 54 hit rate and is expected to hit both blasts of pursuit. You tell me if it's bad or not. In addition it has only one magic type. Fun fun. Don't forget, dualing gespensts means that you get rien impaled. You need 10 more HP to survive that. Good game son.

QUOTE
Heaven Kn. -> Dawn Kn. [Gladiator]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/0%]: 44.00
POW [1/10%]: 25.00
SKL [0/0%]: 14.00
SPD [0/20%]: 35.00
DEF [2/0%]: 13.00
RES [0/0%]: 21.00
LCK [1/10%]: 29.00


As above, but add 1 hit. Also, it's a dawn knight. The pisspoor skill negates any sort of critical you could hope to aspire for. This is basically like attacking with a dark peg mage that has 23 POW.

QUOTE
Heaven Kn. -> Skyfire Kn. [Glass Cannon]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/15%]: 52.00
POW [1/10%]: 25.00
SKL [0/0%]: 19.00
SPD [1/10%]: 35.00
DEF [0/0%]: 7.00
RES [0/0%]: 21.00
LCK [2/5%]: 26.00


This one is better because the hit is better, but it's only 59.5. See above.
Also, why did you decide to lower the luck?

QUOTE
Heaven Kn. -> Skyfire Kn. [Glass Cannon]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/15%]: 52.00
POW [1/10%]: 25.00
SKL [2/20%]: 29.00
SPD [1/10%]: 35.00
DEF [0/0%]: 7.00
RES [0/0%]: 21.00
LCK [2/15%]: 30.00


I have to admit, I'm impressed you came up with this despite the barrier, however, heaven knight promos only have one magic type, so I'm sure this will have some damage problems. Considering it's a lord, that's bad.

QUOTE
are terrible units and should never be used, mirite?


They work. I can get things to work better. =)

QUOTE
Also, I can't think of anyone other than me that runs Impale except the occaisional Valiant (who would rather use Aurora) or Sniper (who would rather use Wrath/Pursuit/Insight).


Something being uncommon doesn't make it any less balanced.
SereneFlight
QUOTE(Thorhammer @ Sep 13 2012, 09:46 PM) *
After playing some more FETO, I thought of some better ideas. Some more reasonable ideas, if you will.

Starting from least craziest to most craziest.

1. Traditional S-ranks (the ones used for their sheer power and hit) should get a hit penalty. They have +10 more hit than the A-rank power tomes and additional might. The only drawback is that they can't be gotten as easily, which is a terrible way to balance them. I was thinking -5 Hit.


Regal Blade
Mt: 15
Hit: 89
Crit: 13

Great Sword (Reliable)
Mt: 15
Hit: 84
Crit: -3

Great Sword (Heavy)
Mt: 16
Hit: 74
Crit: 5

-5 hit for S-ranks? No ty.
kryptonite
QUOTE(Thorhammer @ Sep 14 2012, 01:02 PM) *
QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ Sep 14 2012, 12:33 PM) *
Because

Heaven Kn. -> Star Kn. [Gladiator]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/0%]: 44.00
POW [1/10%]: 25.00
SKL [0/0%]: 14.00
SPD [1/20%]: 35.00
DEF [2/0%]: 13.00
RES [0/0%]: 22.00
LCK [0/10%]: 28.00


This unit has 54 hit rate and is expected to hit both blasts of pursuit. You tell me if it's bad or not. In addition it has only one magic type. Fun fun. Don't forget, dualing gespensts means that you get rien impaled. You need 10 more HP to survive that. Good game son.

QUOTE
Heaven Kn. -> Dawn Kn. [Gladiator]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/0%]: 44.00
POW [1/10%]: 25.00
SKL [0/0%]: 14.00
SPD [0/20%]: 35.00
DEF [2/0%]: 13.00
RES [0/0%]: 21.00
LCK [1/10%]: 29.00


As above, but add 1 hit. Also, it's a dawn knight. The pisspoor skill negates any sort of critical you could hope to aspire for. This is basically like attacking with a dark peg mage that has 23 POW.

QUOTE
Heaven Kn. -> Skyfire Kn. [Glass Cannon]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/15%]: 52.00
POW [1/10%]: 25.00
SKL [0/0%]: 19.00
SPD [1/10%]: 35.00
DEF [0/0%]: 7.00
RES [0/0%]: 21.00
LCK [2/5%]: 26.00


This one is better because the hit is better, but it's only 59.5. See above.
Also, why did you decide to lower the luck?

QUOTE
Heaven Kn. -> Skyfire Kn. [Glass Cannon]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/15%]: 52.00
POW [1/10%]: 25.00
SKL [2/20%]: 29.00
SPD [1/10%]: 35.00
DEF [0/0%]: 7.00
RES [0/0%]: 21.00
LCK [2/15%]: 30.00


I have to admit, I'm impressed you came up with this despite the barrier, however, heaven knight promos only have one magic type, so I'm sure this will have some damage problems. Considering it's a lord, that's bad.

QUOTE
are terrible units and should never be used, mirite?


They work. I can get things to work better. =)

QUOTE
Also, I can't think of anyone other than me that runs Impale except the occaisional Valiant (who would rather use Aurora) or Sniper (who would rather use Wrath/Pursuit/Insight).


Something being uncommon doesn't make it any less balanced.


The first ones I posted are basically what people use now with 1 less Luc put into HP/Def. Because -1 Hit/Avd/Crit Avd and more durability makes a unit go from "awesum" to "terribad."

The latter two are so they weren't all Gladiators with 44/13.

I'm glad you said that Tef's lord with 1 less Skl and more durability was bad though.

Solar Kn. -> Flare Kn. [Glass Cannon]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/15%]: 52.00
POW [1/15%]: 25.00
SKL [1/15%]: 30.00
SPD [1/10%]: 35.00
DEF [1/0%]: 8.00
RES [0/0%]: 17.00
LCK [2/15%]: 30.00

Uncommon? More like non-existant. inb4yourimpalemads My impalemads exist solely for peg mages. It's an all mounted squad. I've yet to see a Valiant or Sniper with Impale active.

The point is, even if you do see someone running Impale, you have 4-6 units (ideally) that curbstomp it because it might as well not have any skill active on most of your army.
kaishin no chikara
QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ Sep 14 2012, 03:23 PM) *
I'm glad you said that Tef's lord with 1 less Skl and more durability was bad though.

Solar Kn. -> Flare Kn. [Glass Cannon]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/15%]: 52.00
POW [1/15%]: 25.00
SKL [1/15%]: 30.00
SPD [1/10%]: 35.00
DEF [1/0%]: 8.00
RES [0/0%]: 17.00
LCK [2/15%]: 30.00

Uncommon? More like non-existant. inb4yourimpalemads My impalemads exist solely for peg mages. It's an all mounted squad. I've yet to see a Valiant or Sniper with Impale active.

The point is, even if you do see someone running Impale, you have 4-6 units (ideally) that curbstomp it because it might as well not have any skill active on most of your army.


Tef's lord isn't bad. I got so consumed with the thought of most pegs missing every shot that I said that. It has 80 hit normally. However, the fact that it has to hit both of its shots every time it pursuits just to get the advantage the unit type is specifically designed to get in the first place is VERY bad. If it fought itself or another unit in Tef's squad, it would only have 67 hit with a tempest.

myimpalemads

I ran hawks with reliable silver impale in the pseudo-team tourney. Sure as shit did a good job, I can tell you that. Very Rare =/= Balanced. The fact that pegmages have no defense other than nihil against this sort of attack is very bad when they naturally have shit hit rate in the first place (Tef's lord aside). That's why I suggested they get MTA3 and the corresponding magic. They'd still get OHKO'd, but have amazing capabilities to compensate for it. Ironically enough, this would cause more people to actually run impale more.

As for having impale instead of another skill: There's only one unit that has it (3 in the case where I set up my team to counter Tef's. That's a different story, but normally it's only one). If you have 4-6 units that can curbstomp it, I have 4-6 that can stand in your way (including the unit itself). I'd better or I wouldn't call myself a duelist.
kryptonite
Peg Mages' Worth: Peg mages are just a luck based unit. Depends on Avd, and depends on hitting low-ish hit rates. When it works, it works well. They usually have, ironically the highest hit rates for one attack because it's less likely for them to miss two 70% than a normal unit to miss a 90%. WTA3 would not help them because they already destroy all mages that don't have 26+ Res.

Impale: They may get OHKOed, but it has only a hit rate in the 60's~70's. Worth OHKO-ing 1 unit with a low-ish chance or Wrath/Pursuit/Insight/Counter/Aurora/Nihiling 2+? As for dueling, no one will put their peg mage in range of that anyways, so it would only be a reactionary unit...

tl;dr: 1 more HP/Def is not a big deal
kaishin no chikara
QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ Sep 14 2012, 06:47 PM) *
Peg Mages' Worth: Peg mages are just a luck based unit. Depends on Avd, and depends on hitting low-ish hit rates. When it works, it works well. They usually have, ironically the highest hit rates for one attack because it's less likely for them to miss two 70% than a normal unit to miss a 90%. WTA3 would not help them because they already destroy all mages that don't have 26+ Res.


wat

Their hit rate for getting 1/2 of the attacks to hit, yes. But those attacks are being fired from a unit that has 25 POW and a 25% damage cut after defense is applied. They need to hit both.

QUOTE
Impale: They may get OHKOed, but it has only a hit rate in the 60's~70's. Worth OHKO-ing 1 unit with a low-ish chance or Wrath/Pursuit/Insight/Counter/Aurora/Nihiling 2+? As for dueling, no one will put their peg mage in range of that anyways, so it would only be a reactionary unit...


That hit rate is better than the pegmage nailing both of it's shots.

"Just dance around it" is a terrible solution. What if I have more than one pegmage?

QUOTE
tl;dr: 1 more HP/Def is not a big deal


You also forgot about rienfleche impale if the pegmage has a 1wt weapon equipped.

But the point of this wasn't JUST them getting OHKO'd, it was the fact that, at the same time, they are mediocre units and need a redeeming factor.

That's why I suggested MTA3. You haven't said anything about that. Please do. I think it would be a really awesome edition.
kryptonite
"WTA3 would not help them because they already destroy all mages that don't have 26+ Res."

If their hit rate is 70%, they have 50% of doing MORE damage than your normal unit, 90% of at least chipping damage.

Like I said, luck-based unit. Those hit rates are from a max hit Sniper/Nomad. Valiants are running Aurora unless they're stupid. Offensive Hawks die.

And I didn't forget about that. It's just such a non-factor it's not even an issue worth talking about. You show me a Rienfleche doing overkill damage to a peg mage in a real battle. happy.gif Reliable Silvers wouldn't have been an issue if I didn't bring it up. I don't even see anyone seriously using it, except for counterpicking against Tef.
TBE
Nolan - 1

Kaishin - 0
kaishin no chikara
QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ Sep 14 2012, 10:26 PM) *
"WTA3 would not help them because they already destroy all mages that don't have 26+ Res."

If their hit rate is 70%, they have 50% of doing MORE damage than your normal unit, 90% of at least chipping damage.


"If" being the key word. How the hell is their hit rate 70%? Bullshit it's that high. Consider glassies when doing your calculations, because tanks take almost no damage. You said it yourself.

QUOTE
Like I said, luck-based unit. Those hit rates are from a max hit Sniper/Nomad. Valiants are running Aurora unless they're stupid. Offensive Hawks die.


"Offensive Hawks die"? What is this? AFAIK, it's a push. Your shots aren't hitting against a hawk. Not both, anyway. The hit rate is absolutely terrible.

Valiants are amazing in that they auto-aurora, so who's to say they can't get high hit at the same time?

QUOTE
And I didn't forget about that. It's just such a non-factor it's not even an issue worth talking about. You show me a Rienfleche doing overkill damage to a peg mage in a real battle. happy.gif Reliable Silvers wouldn't have been an issue if I didn't bring it up. I don't even see anyone seriously using it, except for counterpicking against Tef.


If Pegmages destroy everything with less than 26+ RES, I see no reason not to carry impale, and from now on, I'll keep it on one of my units.

I'm not going to respond to the thing about reliable silvers, because I don't want to get off topic.




Before you respond to all that stuff before, know that the only reason I responded to it was because I would feel bad simply ignoring all of your arguments. I don't want to waste words debating impale on pegmages. It's a waste of time and it's not what this is about. If it makes you feel better, I can cede you the win if you want.

Maybe I threw you off when I bolded that statement. This isn't about defending them from those attacks, it's about making them better and letting them be true glass cannons like they were made to be.

I think that peg mages should get 3 magic types, because it makes them more than just some sort of gimick. It gives them (more) power. They don't destroy everything with MTA2, and they wouldn't with MTA3, they'd just destroy regular magic units. I don't know where you got that idea that pegmages destroy everything with 25 RES or less, but I disagree. Please show me some numbers.

But they would destroy normal magic units by always having WTA over them, because honestly, any unit with just one type deserves to have MTD.

Also, those poor stave mages are some of the worst if not THE worst magic units in the game. MTD those suckers and BAM, game over. They should get two magics instead of one.

This topic is stressing me out, so I'm going to post some of the emotes from the side bar that I enjoy seeing so much.

awesome.gif thrust.gif point.gif magic.gif crazy.gif
kryptonite
...

Okay...

And like I said before...

"WTA3 would not help them because they already destroy all mages that don't have 26+ Res."

I thought I made it clear I was talking about mages... :[
kaishin no chikara
QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ Sep 16 2012, 01:12 AM) *
...

Okay...

And like I said before...

"WTA3 would not help them because they already destroy all mages that don't have 26+ Res."

I thought I made it clear I was talking about mages... :[


Except they don't because even then they don't have that complete weapon triangle control.

I don't see how WTA3 wouldn't help them. It would give them that triangle control + extra power.

But if you think it would have such little impact, and nobody else seems to have a problem, why not just add it then? Speeds and Elliot said they liked the idea (although Speeds thought it might be somewhat broken), and of course I think it's awesome.

Edit: It also deserves some mention that stave pegs do not destroy those units you're talking about, and are very bad against them, only getting WTA2 one third of the time. In addition, stave pegs can't cast full power buff staves to compensate.
kryptonite
I mean the WTA2 pegs... like those with 2 weapons. >_>

But they're fine when not getting WTD. They're like mounted battle mages with good Res.

Their problems are with bulky mages and bowz.
kaishin no chikara
Don't forget about everything else that uses physical and has a decent avoid rate, because they can't hit.

And they get WTD a 3rd of the time. It's annoying.

And you can't just exclude stave pegs from the equation. They definitely need a boost of some sort.
kryptonite
Dodgy ones only...

And nope, at worst it's equal.

As for staves, heavens have the best base stats, and can get 25/35/30 while surviving a Rienfleche. The other ones, yeah... +2 Skl and +1 Res. >.>
kaishin no chikara
I thought I replied to this a long time ago. What gives? ;-;

If you can't dodge, you're a tank or specialized (in which case you'll probably be out of combat). There (hopefully) isn't low defense and low evasion cannon fodder for you to kill on every team, ya'know. If there is you should play better people. >_>

And you are right about the WTA. I forgot it'll be equal at worst. But there shouldn't be an "at worst," they should be an anti-mage to every unit.

As for staves, do you know the penalty for using those units? They get WTA less than a 3rd of the time (because many units with multiple magic types can swap on a dime) and some units will de-equip. In addition, that low skill is actually a setback and the lack of WTA does not help this. Lastly, they don't get the full stave boost. And the extra 2 BST is negligible when you consider it's mostly forced RES. I don't know what you're talking about with the +1 forced res regarding the other ones. And show me a build where you have 25/35/30 and survive a rienfleche, all while having decent hit.
TBE
This is a work of art, the status staves part especially. This should be implemented ASAP, after fensti, of course gets more comfortable with feto and all the mechanics.
kryptonite
Lol, no one respects people who use status anyways.
kaishin no chikara
I WANT MTA3 PEGS! shakefist.gif

YO QUIERO MTA3 PEGS! shakefist.gif

Also, if you guys had to choose an option out of the six that I listed for staves, what would you pick?
Falaflame
QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ Apr 23 2013, 11:03 AM) *
Lol, no one respects people who use status anyways.

That is the sad reality. Why put staves in the game if no one's going to use them?

Also, I wouldn't be against any of the status ideas Kaishin brought to the plate.
LeaderR Elliot
On the matter of status I would like a solution like this one


make it so that there is another formulae for the affectred turns as in:

Unit Res < 10 then status last 3 turns
Unit Res < 20 but > or = 10 then status last 2 turns
Unit Res < 30 but > or = 20 then status last 1 turn
Unit Res = 30 then unit is inmune to status

And leave everything else untouched(not intereseted in changing accuracy trying to change the least possible). This not only would nerf status duration on its own (since most promo units get at least above 10) but also encourage players to invest in RES.
Falaflame
I'll also post my idea as well.

Status accuracy really is the problem in all honesty over anything else.

Since Pow and Skl are what brings up the accuracy (180 acc with 30 pow and 30 skill), why not include Luck into the equation? (30 pow 30 skill and 30 luck brings the acc up to 180, so just pow and skill alone doesnt cut it)

I don't know what the formulae would be like on that, but just a thought.
Nohrian Lord S-IX
Or just remove those game-breaking status effects in general and replace them with debuffs similar to Fear, except in this case they'd only affect individual stats.

My examples from skype:

Weaken: Def debuff, lowers def by (1 - (Pow/5))
Averse: Res Debuff, same as ^
possible room for other stats, and Fear is still the S rank since it lowers all stats~

none of these force units into not battling either.
ninja.gif (these may possibly screw over pegs who already have low def and weakness to bows though)
kryptonite
Still makes it a 2HKO on Pegs, and still not that good unless you have impale.

But that doesn't solve the Pow issue... I vote using either Skl or Res for the calculation instead. oh.gif
Falaflame
QUOTE(Blade Lord S-IX @ Apr 29 2013, 09:19 AM) *
Or just remove those game-breaking status effects in general and replace them with debuffs similar to Fear, except in this case they'd only affect individual stats.

My examples from skype:

Weaken: Def debuff, lowers def by (1 - (Pow/5))
Averse: Res Debuff, same as ^
possible room for other stats, and Fear is still the S rank since it lowers all stats~

none of these force units into not battling either.
ninja.gif (these may possibly screw over pegs who already have low def and weakness to bows though)

The problem with this is that renders any usefulness Poison tome has obsolete.

I'd like to see speed debuffs though. Cuz fuck those pegs.
Konata Izumi
QUOTE(Falaflame @ Apr 29 2013, 07:15 PM) *
QUOTE(Blade Lord S-IX @ Apr 29 2013, 09:19 AM) *
Or just remove those game-breaking status effects in general and replace them with debuffs similar to Fear, except in this case they'd only affect individual stats.

My examples from skype:

Weaken: Def debuff, lowers def by (1 - (Pow/5))
Averse: Res Debuff, same as ^
possible room for other stats, and Fear is still the S rank since it lowers all stats~

none of these force units into not battling either.
ninja.gif (these may possibly screw over pegs who already have low def and weakness to bows though)

The problem with this is that renders any usefulness Poison tome has obsolete.

I'd like to see speed debuffs though. Cuz fuck those pegs.


Id rather not debuff speed for the aforementioned reason... cause the use of pegs would pretty much plummet. They already hav the 25 cap workin against them, lets not giv them even more debuffs.
Nohrian Lord S-IX
was thinking along the lines of only lowering either def or res and maybe lck since we haz fortune~
Falaflame
Sora, pegs are hard enough to hit as is. No damage is always better than having all the defense in the world.
kryptonite
fixed
Falaflame
QUOTE(Nolan Kryptonite @ Apr 30 2013, 12:04 AM) *
fixed

Then they become actual tanks.

See also: some of Shiori's squads.
kaishin no chikara
QUOTE(Falaflame @ Apr 30 2013, 12:03 AM) *
Sora, pegs are hard enough to hit as is. No damage is always better than having all the defense in the world.


I'd think hawks would be a bigger issue. They have even better avoid and unlike pegs they are nasty in a fight.

But that's just what hawks are. You have to bring units that can hit those types of units. Bows still get +10 hit versus fliers, and a dedicated sniper, marksman, or valiant shouldn't have too much trouble hitting those units.
Falaflame
QUOTE(Thorhammer @ May 6 2013, 01:22 PM) *
QUOTE(Falaflame @ Apr 30 2013, 12:03 AM) *
Sora, pegs are hard enough to hit as is. No damage is always better than having all the defense in the world.


I'd think hawks would be a bigger issue. They have even better avoid and unlike pegs they are nasty in a fight.

But that's just what hawks are. You have to bring units that can hit those types of units. Bows still get +10 hit versus fliers, and a dedicated sniper, marksman, or valiant shouldn't have too much trouble hitting those units.


By Pegs, Hawks are included in the mix.

Even 30/25 snipers still have trouble against hawks. And while Vals have +15 hit, they aren't known for their luck OR defense, and they have barely more hit than the said 30/25 snipers, so even they are a risk against hawks. And who on earth uses marksmen?

Hawks need to be nerfed. No questions asked. +10 avoid at the very most. I'm also considering a nerf for critmasters too, cosidering every battle is always decided by at least 1 crit. But I'll lay off those little bombers for now.
Fredmir - HHH
QUOTE(Falaflame @ May 6 2013, 08:37 PM) *
And who on earth uses marksmen?


I do, sorry for being on earth.
Nohrian Lord S-IX
QUOTE(Falaflame @ Apr 29 2013, 07:15 PM) *
QUOTE(Blade Lord S-IX @ Apr 29 2013, 09:19 AM) *
Or just remove those game-breaking status effects in general and replace them with debuffs similar to Fear, except in this case they'd only affect individual stats.

My examples from skype:

Weaken: Def debuff, lowers def by (1 - (Pow/5))
Averse: Res Debuff, same as ^
possible room for other stats, and Fear is still the S rank since it lowers all stats~

none of these force units into not battling either.
ninja.gif (these may possibly screw over pegs who already have low def and weakness to bows though)

The problem with this is that renders any usefulness Poison tome has obsolete.




There's no Poison staff and it is still a decent "scare tactic" to keep foes away
Falaflame
QUOTE(Blade Lord S-IX @ May 6 2013, 09:37 PM) *
QUOTE(Falaflame @ Apr 29 2013, 07:15 PM) *
QUOTE(Blade Lord S-IX @ Apr 29 2013, 09:19 AM) *
Or just remove those game-breaking status effects in general and replace them with debuffs similar to Fear, except in this case they'd only affect individual stats.

My examples from skype:

Weaken: Def debuff, lowers def by (1 - (Pow/5))
Averse: Res Debuff, same as ^
possible room for other stats, and Fear is still the S rank since it lowers all stats~

none of these force units into not battling either.
ninja.gif (these may possibly screw over pegs who already have low def and weakness to bows though)

The problem with this is that renders any usefulness Poison tome has obsolete.




There's no Poison staff and it is still a decent "scare tactic" to keep foes away

What I'm sayiing is, we already have a res/def debuff because of the Poison tome. By adding those staves, it would make that tome obsolete in usefulness on all scales.
kryptonite
Poison, hits Def and Res, also lowers HP every turn (useful in unpromo)
LeaderR Elliot
Guys if you complain this much about hawks and dodge then start playing Fixed or 2 RN so you can cripple them
Falaflame
No one ever wants to play 2 RN.

Fixed is broken until SaS or some code junkie we pull out from a ragged street somewhere fixes it. And even if we do, Hawks get 3HKO'd in Fixed, so they're equally as annoying. (AGAIN, see some of Shiori's fixed squads)

On top of that, I'm not playing completely different modes just because of 4 units. (well, 2. Dracos are dying down in numbers)
kaishin no chikara
The only thing needed is the SKL buff. 2 hit per point. Make it happen. Evade tanks will drop like flies. But would that would buff tanks in a way they don't deserve.

Or, the formula could be this:

SKL <= 20: Hit = SKL * 1.5 + LCK
SKL >= 20: Hit = SKL * 3 - 30 + LCK

That way, a skill of 20 provides 30 hit (using both formulas, because it's consistent) and a skill of 30 provides 60 hit, like it should be. Both bar luck, of course.

IIRC, New Mystery does something similar with hit crit rates.

Anyway, this way skill dumps still pay the penalty and don't just get free hit from a skill buff.

It could also be SKL >= 20: Hit = SKL * 4 - 50 + LCK
This way, a skill of 20 still provides 30, but a skill of 30 provides a whopping 70. Take that, Evade Tanks!
Falaflame
Thanks for the bright idea, Kaishin. I'm tired of being told LOLPLAY2RN and LOLPLAYFIXED when NOBODY ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH PLAYS THAT SHIT.

I'm sorry, but I'm not playing different modes no one wants to play because of 2 stupid, idiotic units.
LeaderR Elliot
QUOTE
Thanks for the bright idea, Kaishin. I'm tired of being told LOLPLAY2RN and LOLPLAYFIXED when NOBODY ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH PLAYS THAT SHIT.

I'm sorry, but I'm not playing different modes no one wants to play because of 2 stupid, idiotic units.


LOLPLAY2RN and LOLPLAYFIXED

why you hate dodge tanks?

EDIT2: On another hand i think Bronze slim can hit pegs pretty well. And on another I would rather have uploading FETO mugs and sprites fixed

Also kaishin crit rate system in New mystery is waaaaaaay less extreme

crit= 1/2 skill as long as unit SKL<20
crit= SKill-10 as long Unit Skill>20

Buffing skill for the sake of nerfing dodge tanks is not an improve
Nohrian Lord S-IX
Buff the weak instead of nerfing the strong~

The Weak Being:
Curates need to have def and pow = Clerics' Pow and Res
Phys (non hawk) Pegs need to match hp and res with wyvs HP/def
B.Mages need HP boost with slight skl boost (mainly promoted ones)
Hammer MT nerf
Mage/Shaman/Monk need slight stat boost to compete with Clerics
Horseslayer - fix?

(was discussed in FETO Skype)

Need to see more than the same units being used all the time
kaishin no chikara
Added some new stuff. It's in bold.
kryptonite
Lunar Kn. -> Storm Kn. [Glass Cannon]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/10%]: 48.00
POW [2/25%]: 30.00
SKL [0/0%]: 20.00
SPD [2/5%]: 35.00
DEF [0/0%]: 8.00
RES [0/0%]: 20.00
LCK [0/0%]: 20.00

Technically they can only get 28 Pow (so the 2 extra points can go to somewhere else), but 28 + autopursuit is still pretty damning.

Lunar Kn. -> Storm Kn. [Glass Cannon]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [0/0%]: 36.00
POW [2/20%]: 28.00
SKL [2/15%]: 28.00
SPD [2/5%]: 35.00
DEF [0/0%]: 8.00
RES [0/0%]: 20.00
LCK [0/0%]: 20.00

I call this idgaf about surviving. With 8 range and magic, nothing that will kill it will ever be in range without being able to be attacked first. The only thing that could possibly counter it is an equipped bow at the *edge* of its range, hitting a counter.

Lunar Kn. -> Storm Kn. [Brute]
Stats at level 20/20
HP [2/0%]: 44.00
POW [2/20%]: 28.00
SKL [1/15%]: 27.00
SPD [1/5%]: 30.00
DEF [0/0%]: 12.00
RES [0/0%]: 20.00
LCK [0/0%]: 18.00

This one is just like a glassy foot mage, except it's mounted and has 2 less pow. Oh, and has two magic types and isn't raped by magic in return.
Nohrian Lord S-IX
QUOTE
8. Give all physical flying units that don't have +15 evasion as a class skill the ability to get 35 SPD.

The thing about the +15 evasion is that you don't have to invest in other stats to get killer evasion and it only costs the sacrifice of a weapon type. This is somewhat bad for the melee units but even then isn't really noticeable for anything but hitting troubs and other hawk (or dracos, but they take little damage either way), which even with WTA2 instead of WTD is usually still impossible with their ridiculous evasion. Hawks definitely don't notice this because they're immune to the weapon triangle. And of course you can always overcome.

Giving the units that don't have this bonus a 35 SPD cap allows them to get 2/3rds of the bonus and have pursuit on a whole plethora of enemies, but at the same time doesn't make hawks/dracos obsolete because hawks/dracos still have the advantage of not having to invest in 5 points of extra speed to get the bonus. It's just given to them (remember, 35 SPD cap =/- 35 SPD).


I was mainly referring to Peregrine/Falco/Seraph Kns since they lack a Wyvern's bulk to survive damn-near anything and they lack the avd of Hawks/Dracos. Not to mention you could just run a glassy Horse or Wyv to outclass a peg because these 3 pegs cant take hits or dodge arrows. That 35spd cap gives them a chance to actually be used w/o being too OP. Otherwise they could really use a base spd, res, and hp boost so that they can at least be the res-counter-part of wyverns.
LeaderR Elliot
QUOTE(Blade Lord S-IX @ Jul 8 2013, 12:14 PM) *
QUOTE
8. Give all physical flying units that don't have +15 evasion as a class skill the ability to get 35 SPD.

The thing about the +15 evasion is that you don't have to invest in other stats to get killer evasion and it only costs the sacrifice of a weapon type. This is somewhat bad for the melee units but even then isn't really noticeable for anything but hitting troubs and other hawk (or dracos, but they take little damage either way), which even with WTA2 instead of WTD is usually still impossible with their ridiculous evasion. Hawks definitely don't notice this because they're immune to the weapon triangle. And of course you can always overcome.

Giving the units that don't have this bonus a 35 SPD cap allows them to get 2/3rds of the bonus and have pursuit on a whole plethora of enemies, but at the same time doesn't make hawks/dracos obsolete because hawks/dracos still have the advantage of not having to invest in 5 points of extra speed to get the bonus. It's just given to them (remember, 35 SPD cap =/- 35 SPD).


I was mainly referring to Peregrine/Falco/Seraph Kns since they lack a Wyvern's bulk to survive damn-near anything and they lack the avd of Hawks/Dracos. Not to mention you could just run a glassy Horse or Wyv to outclass a peg because these 3 pegs cant take hits or dodge arrows. That 35spd cap gives them a chance to actually be used w/o being too OP. Otherwise they could really use a base spd, res, and hp boost so that they can at least be the res-counter-part of wyverns.



30 POW + 35 spd + physical weapons for top tier!
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